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Post by Progenitor A on Jan 6, 2014 14:54:35 GMT 1
I was reading a specious argument elsewhere that wind generated electricity is now as cheap, or cheaper than traditional fossil fuel generated electricity
Figures are presented that 'prove' this thesis
But this once again illustrates the essential dishonesty of the 'green' lobby. For even if wind-generated electricity is as cheap as fossil fuel or nuclear generated electricity, its cost is nevertheless twice at least twice the bald statement of its price,
Why?
Because of the utter unreliability of wind-powered electricity, it is necessary to provide fossil fuel or nuclear back-up for wind generated electricity. That in effect at least doubles the price of wind genertaed elctricity even if it is the 'same' price as fossil fuelled electricity
It may be possible, by providing enough distributed wind farms to iron out the inherent unreliability of localised wind, but of course doing that means that many many more wind farms must be installed and interconnected to the national grid.
Sorry, wind generated electricity can never be as cheap as fossil fuelled or nuclear electricity, as these generating systems are designed to be 99.999% (approximately) reliable, something that wind power alone can never achieve
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Post by marchesarosa on Jan 6, 2014 15:14:54 GMT 1
It has been suggested, I believe, in the EU, that "renewables" generators should have to bear the cost of the thermal back up when they fail to supply.
That's a good idea and would discourage the subsidised rush to renewables.
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Post by jonjel on Jan 6, 2014 15:41:25 GMT 1
I agree and the madness of thinking we can simply wait for and rely on a windy day. Bitter cold high pressure systems in the winter and these things don't even move.
However one thing that could perhaps be given further attention is tidal power. If one thinks big and had floating caissons of many many acres in size, they could be joined up and as they rose and fell the energy this created, whether that was air pressure or simple cables and turbines, could be used. You would not need to sophistication of some of the systems I have seen at say the mouth of Strangford Loch.
The advantage of that as I see it is we know when the tide will be out in say Plymouth, or in Hull, and the height of that tide on a certain day hundreds of years in the future. And it will never fail.
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Post by Progenitor A on Jan 8, 2014 9:51:02 GMT 1
I agree and the madness of thinking we can simply wait for and rely on a windy day. Bitter cold high pressure systems in the winter and these things don't even move. However one thing that could perhaps be given further attention is tidal power. If one thinks big and had floating caissons of many many acres in size, they could be joined up and as they rose and fell the energy this created, whether that was air pressure or simple cables and turbines, could be used. You would not need to sophistication of some of the systems I have seen at say the mouth of Strangford Loch. The advantage of that as I see it is we know when the tide will be out in say Plymouth, or in Hull, and the height of that tide on a certain day hundreds of years in the future. And it will never fail. I agree with this The prime considerations with electricity generation must be cost and reliability. With the UK the prime consideration is CO 2 pollution. That is fine in principle IF there is a general world agreement with that aim. There is not. China and India, the biggest 'polluters' simply ignore green treaties whilst the UK, the most zealously 'green' industrial nation on earth simply ignores the catastrophic effect upon our industries I see Germany will build 10 new coal-powered stations over the next few years! www.torontosun.com/2014/01/06...ut-in-the-coal |
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Post by principled on Jan 8, 2014 19:18:57 GMT 1
PA I've been banging on about this with my MP for so long now, I suffer a severe migraine whenever I think of our governments' (plural) insanity in passing legislation that commits us to reduce by 80% our CO2 emissions by 2050. Which, if it came to pass, would reduce the World's emissions by a whopping 1.2% (China alone produces 24%) So far we've spent billions in subsidies for NO apparent reduction in CO2 and at the same time our generating reserve has shrunk to nearly zero, putting our electricity supply at risk. I suppose we should be thankful that we haven't had a polar vortex, because I doubt we have the capacity to meet the surge in demand that would result. PA, I'm not usually stuck for words, but in this instance I am. I spent weeks researching renewables and put my concerns-with supporting evidence- to my MP. The inane replies I got from the Ministry made me realise that we are truly up the creek without a paddle, without a map and with a bloody great hole in the boat and the captains of government are as good as a chocolate teapot in terms of finding a solution.  Pass the aspirin!  P |
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Post by alancalverd on Jan 11, 2014 19:03:28 GMT 1
It has been suggested, I believe, in the EU, that "renewables" generators should have to bear the cost of the thermal back up when they fail to supply. That's a good idea and would discourage the subsidised rush to renewables. I've always advocated that nobody should be allowed to sell renewable energy to the national grid unless he has five days' storage capacity at the full rated power of his source - i.e. like a coalfired power station. |
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Post by marchesarosa on Mar 18, 2014 13:27:32 GMT 1
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Post by principled on Mar 20, 2014 12:52:03 GMT 1
Hi Marchesa,
I sent a post yesterday but it seems to have disappeared into the ether, so I'll send it again.
On Monday I was driving in Spain on the A3 (that connects Valencia with Madrid). In a section of about 30 miles in the province of Catilla la Mancha there are literally hundreds of wind trubines. There was just ONE rotating. I said to Mrs P that if this is the future then the only way forward is to number each turbine and have a daily lottery. If you pick the number of the turbine that is rotating, you get to have a cooked lunch. If not, you have to make do with cold soup and raw potatoes!
Anyway, I intend to precis the paper and ask my MP to forward it to DECC for a response. I've already told him that we need 76 000 turbines to recharge the batteries of the elctric cars that Clegg wants us to buy. Now all we need is an area the size of of Wales full of turbines so we can cook!!!
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Post by marchesarosa on Mar 20, 2014 15:15:36 GMT 1
Or better still, principled, flood Wales to provide the hydro capacity necessary to "store" renewable energy. Win-win?
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Post by jonjel on Mar 20, 2014 17:06:44 GMT 1
Yep, I agree with a fair bit of that. And strangely when I went to work this morning the tide was in on the river, and it was out at lunchtime when I came back to work.
Must be magic.
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