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Post by Progenitor A on Dec 2, 2014 21:34:16 GMT 1
I have just noticed this: ...I have stated , on this subject, that I have no idea whether there are intelligence differencs between races... If this were indeed true It is indeed true if you care to examine what I have wrote PA would have hastened to distance himself from Nick's post,/quote] No he would not where he suggests we are dealing here with something quite settled: Careful Nay.... Eppur si muove won't save you... By the time he muttered those those words, Galileo's hypothesis (which had got him into so much trouble with the orthodoxy of his day) was no mere hypothesis, but had been thoroughly proved. If you are implying that Nick is 'suggesting' from this posting that it is quite settled that there are differences of intelligence between races, then you are quite bonkers
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Post by fascinating on Dec 2, 2014 21:47:16 GMT 1
Progenitor A said "Do you maintain there is no genetic difference between a Chinaman and a Zulu - it is entirely accidental that they happen to have the differences that they do" There are genetic differences between Chinamen and Zulus. There are also genetic differences between Zulus and Hutus, and between Irishmen and Slavs, between different families in this country, between males and females, and between individuals. What's your point? Mypoint is that Jean maintains that 'race' is fuzzy and non-scientific. If it can be discriminated through genetics hen it is entirely scientific Race can be discriminated through genetics? Where do you get that idea? What are the races that genetics can discriminate?
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Post by Progenitor A on Dec 2, 2014 21:59:35 GMT 1
Mypoint is that Jean maintains that 'race' is fuzzy and non-scientific. If it can be discriminated through genetics hen it is entirely scientific Race can be discriminated through genetics? Where do you get that idea? What are the races that genetics can discriminate? Pardon? You have just said that race can be discriminated through genetics!
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Post by fascinating on Dec 2, 2014 22:17:11 GMT 1
Where did I say that race can be discriminated through genetics? I did say that there are genetic differences between people, one example I gave being men and women. That does NOT mean that men and women are different races!
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Post by Progenitor A on Dec 3, 2014 9:32:07 GMT 1
Where did I say that race can be discriminated through genetics? Here: If by this you mean there are genetic differences between races, but we do not know what they are so we cannot discriminate, then to say that there are genetic differences is meaningless
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Post by fascinating on Dec 3, 2014 10:01:14 GMT 1
"If by this you mean there are genetic differences between races, but we do not know what they are so we cannot discriminate, then to say that there are genetic differences is meaningless" It is NOT meaningless to say that there are genetic differences between humans, it is just a FACT. Come on, pro A, get your thinking cap on! What I am saying is that I do not know what you mean by the term "race". You insist that the human population must be divided up into broad categories called "races". I say that there is no SCIENTIFIC justification for doing that. Yes, of course, at a social level, people generally tend to assign individuals to particular racial groups that they invent, but that is not science. Just as the world is divided into countries, that is a social reality, but it is not a scientific reality, countries are inventions in human minds. This wiki article is a good introduction to the subject en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics
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Post by Progenitor A on Dec 3, 2014 10:23:20 GMT 1
It is NOT meaningless to say that there are genetic differences between humans, it is just a FACT. Fine, you have already said that. And you have said there are genetic differences between races too What I am saying is that I do not know what you mean by the term "race". I have made no attempt to define 'race' although it is self -evident that race does exist. Then you said that there are genetic differences between races. That difference is surely a SCIENTIFIC definition of race You insist that the human population must be divided up into broad categories called "races". I insist that it is self-evident that races do exist - to deny that is bonkers I say that there is no justification for doing that. I say that is bonkers and that, furthermore you contradict yourself. Racial differences are bvious in many cases, then you reinforce this self-evidence by saying there are genetic differences beteween races Yes, of course, at a social level, people generally tend to assign individuals to particular racial groups that they invent, but that is not science. Why not? Much of science is taxonomy And you have said that there are genetic differences - there is further scientific evidence of races Just as the world is divided into countries, that is a social reality, but it is not a scientific reality, countries are inventions in human minds. Ah, but if it could be shown that there are genetic differences between countries therr would be a scientific basis for countries [
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Post by fascinating on Dec 3, 2014 10:28:49 GMT 1
"Then you said that there are genetic differences between races. That difference is surely a SCIENTIFIC definition of race"
I NEVER SAID that there are genetic differences between races.
You insist that races are self-evident and that to deny it is bonkers. OK then, TELL US WHAT EXACTLY YOU MEAN BY RACES. How many are there? How, exactly, do you decide SCIENTIFICALLY, which race someone belongs to?
YOU are the one that insists that there are races of humans. It is up to YOU to state how these races are defined.
Did you actually READ the wiki article I gave you a link to?
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Post by jean on Dec 3, 2014 10:48:13 GMT 1
He can easily tell the difference between a 'Chinaman' and a Zulu, just by looking at them. He rarely gets much further than that.
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Post by Progenitor A on Dec 3, 2014 11:06:49 GMT 1
I NEVER SAID that there are genetic differences between races. Yes you did. Here is what you said: There are genetic differences between Chinamen and Zulus. There are also genetic differences between Zulus and Hutus, and between Irishmen and Slavs, You insist that races are self-evident What I said was that the differences between some races is self-evident OK then, TELL US WHAT EXACTLY YOU MEAN BY RACES. How many are there? Well the first step is to list their visible distinguishing features Then apply your methodology of listing their genetic differences How, exactly, do you decide SCIENTIFICALLY, which race someone belongs to? If what you say is true, this can be done by listing their genetic differences YOU are the one that insists that there are races of humans. And YOU too by stating there are genetic differences between races It is up to YOU to state how these races are defined. You have kindly assisted me by stating that there are genetic differences betwen races Did you actually READ the wiki article I gave you a link to? No I did not I try to avoid Wiki as a reference source (as should anyone with any sense)
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Post by jean on Dec 3, 2014 11:19:58 GMT 1
Did you actually READ the wiki article I gave you a link to? No I did not I try to avoid Wiki as a reference source (as should anyone with any sense) Wiki is as good or as bad as whoever writes the individual articles. You can usually tell whether a Wiki article is reliable by the sources it refers to (there are plenty here for you to investigate). So you have other sources yourself. Isn't it time you gave us a link to them?
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Post by fascinating on Dec 3, 2014 11:32:32 GMT 1
No I didn't! I never mentioned the word "race" at all!
All I am pointing out is that there are genetic differences between all individuals (identical twins are the exception). There are also genetic differences between males and females. That does not mean that we decide that males and females are in separate races (nor in separate countries!).
Oh so that your scientific answer for determining races is it? You don't list any visible distinguishing features. Nor do you answer my question as to how many races there are. By the way, I have no methodology for determining the race of individuals genetically.
Perhaps you might accept Encyclopedia Britannica, which defines race thus "the idea that the human species is divided into distinct groups on the basis of inherited physical and behavioral differences. Genetic studies in the late 20th century refuted the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century." But I suppose that you believe that Britannica has been taken over by a bunch of Trotskyists. So you provide a credible source that backs up your case on race (whatever your case actually is, you have not made it clear).
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Post by Progenitor A on Dec 3, 2014 14:51:08 GMT 1
No I didn't! I never mentioned the word "race" at all! No you did not, but what is a China man if not a member of the Chinese race. or a Zulu but a member of the Zulu race? All I am pointing out is that there are genetic differences between all individuals (identical twins are the exception). There are also genetic differences between males and females. That does not mean that we decide that males and females are in separate races (nor in separate countries!). OK And if groups of people have genetic similarities, what do you call that? Oh so that your scientific answer for determining races is it? You don't list any visible distinguishing features. No , I was speaking in general terms but it is entirely possible to list common characteristics of groups of people and Nor do you answer my question as to how many races there are. I simply do not know By the way, I have no methodology for determining the race of individuals genetically. OK Perhaps you might accept Encyclopedia Britannica, which defines race thus "the idea that the human species is divided into distinct groups on the basis of inherited physical and behavioral differences. Genetic studies in the late 20th century refuted the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century." But I suppose that you believe that Britannica has been taken over by a bunch of Trotskyists. So you provide a credible source that backs up your case on race (whatever your case actually is, you have not made it clear). It is simply nonsense to pretend that certain groups of people do not share a common gene set or DNA set unless someone is going to posit the quite ridiculous contention that groups of people are black entirely by accident , or tend to be small in stature entirely by accident or indeed share any of the characteristics that are so easily identifiable by observation To say that an group of black people are a 'cultural invention' is so utterly stupid as to be laughable
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Post by jean on Dec 3, 2014 15:50:22 GMT 1
No I didn't! I never mentioned the word "race" at all! No you did not, but what is a China man if not a member of the Chinese race. or a Zulu but a member of the Zulu race? They are people who look very different from each other, and belong to groups genetically distinct from each other. That each group constitutes something called a race goes further than fascinating's original statement, and is not implied by it. The question of how many races there are, to which you say you don't know the answer, is hghly pertinent. It is exactly at the point where one race ends and another begins that the whole question becomes problematic; if you don't know where the boundaries are, how can you talk about the groups that are bounded by them? Take the Zulu for example, since you mentioned them. Are they of the same race as the Xhosa and Bapedi? Or the Basotho group or the Tswana? How, if at all, are they distinct from other groups throughout the continent? Unless you can give clear and certain answers to all these questions, you have not shown that race can be objectively defined. Nobody has said that, though. What they have said that the lines of demarcation between one group of black people and another group of black people, or between a group of black people and a group of white people, or of Chinese people, or between a group of Chinese people and a group of Japanese people, or a group of Western European people and a group of Slavs, cannot be clearly drawn. That means we cannot continue with the old pre-scientific taxonomies of race.The mystery is why anyone wants to.
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Post by jean on Dec 3, 2014 16:09:35 GMT 1
Here's something you may like, PA: You really can see some of the differences, can't you? But the Irish - who knew?
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