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Post by jean on Apr 2, 2018 14:21:18 GMT 1
'Christian anti-semitism' (if it still exists) has nothing to do with the current Labour Party anti-Semitism, whereas Moslem anti-Semitism most definitely does Have you forgotten what I posted above - which the marchesa unwittingly gave credence to as well - that popularity among Muslims of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a work originating in Russia and owing far more to the background of Christian antisemitism in Europ than to anything in the Qu'ran. And of course though we can surmise that Christ himself wasn't antisemitic in any recognisable sense, there is plenty in the NT that gave rise to later antisemitism - count how many times, especially in St John's gospel, it is 'the Jews' who murder Christ.
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Post by Progenitor A on Apr 2, 2018 14:48:46 GMT 1
'Christian anti-semitism' (if it still exists) has nothing to do with the current Labour Party anti-Semitism, whereas Moslem anti-Semitism most definitely does Have you forgotten what I posted above - which the marchesa unwittingly gave credence to as well - that popularity among Muslims of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a work originating in Russia and owing far more to the background of Christian antisemitism in Europ than to anything in the Qu'ran. And of course though we can surmise that Christ himself wasn't antisemitic in any recognisable sense, there is plenty in the NT that gave rise to later antisemitism - count how many times, especially in St John's gospel, it is 'the Jews' who murder Christ. No-one denies the history of Christian anti-Semitism, however that has been largely purged by the NAZI excesses. Incidentally it WAS the Jews that had Christ killed, that is a simple historical fact. Should such facts be hidden ?
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Post by fascinating on Apr 2, 2018 16:47:44 GMT 1
"It is obvious that the Jews alone were not responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. The Roman government, through the decisions of her governing authorities, Herod and Pontius Pilate, bears a portion of the guilt. It is worthy to note that the Roman historian, Tacitus, writing in his Roman Annals (written between A.D. 115 and 117), mentions that Christ “was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius” (Annals, XV. 44). He does not mention Jewish responsibility for the death of Christ." (Jews for Jesus).
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Post by marchesarosa on Apr 3, 2018 10:12:59 GMT 1
I don't care about the institutionalised accretions of a faith, Jean. In this matter I go to the fountainhead of the faiths. The message of Jesus and that of Muhammad could not be more different. It is Muhammad's preaching and example that ensures antisemitism is endemic in Islam and enshrined as holy writ.
We are discussing here antisemitism in the Labour party. it is not the Christian churches of the UK that constitute the reservoir that feeds the Labour Party's increasing antisemitism. It is the LP's increasing recruitment of muslims into the party and the cohorts of muslim voters who are regularly corralled into voting Labour at the behest of their "community leaders". Along with all the other reprehensible aspects of muslim culture imported in the last half century we can also add electoral corruption. This is why Corbyn has gone easy on antisemitism - the LP is now in hock to muslim values because large dense concentrations of muslims in towns and cities now provide the electoral canon fodder of the Labour heartlands.
And to fascinating - The so-called "Jerusalem Church" after Jesus' death was the original "Christian" Church and they were ALL Jews, most of whom opposed including Gentiles into their religious community. The message was spread to the Gentiles round the Mediterranean world by St Paul who was not one of the original followers of Jesus. Sure, Jesus was opposed by the Jewish hierarchy - his message was too radical for them! But that does not make them anti-Semites. On the contrary, they were anti-Christian! The way subsequent gentile Christian churches interpreted the history of their movement is a matter for them but hostility to Jews certainly does not arise from Chtist's teaching.
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Post by jean on Apr 3, 2018 10:31:43 GMT 1
Doesn't matter, marchesa. Christian antisemitism is deeply rooted Don't you mean WAS? No. Most Western antisemitism is rooted in the European Christian past, even if people don't recognise where their antisemitism is coming from, or see it as antisemitism at all. Today's Muslims get as much of their antisemitism from the Protocols as they do from the Qu'ran. And of course, as you said yourself in your OP, it is opposition to Israel that is the 'root cause' of present-day Muslim antisemitism.
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Post by jean on Apr 3, 2018 10:33:58 GMT 1
I don't care about the institutionalised accretions of a faith... If it's antisemitism we're talking about, it's the 'accretions' that count. If you want to turn this into another purely Muslim-bashing exercise, start a new thread (on second thoughts, please don't!)
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Post by marchesarosa on Apr 3, 2018 10:52:28 GMT 1
If you want to turn this debate into a discussion of institutionalised Christian antisemitism take YOUR irrelevances to another thread, jean!
Muslim anti-semitism is the basis of the resurgence of antisemitism in the UK and in the LP in particular. I am on message in examining muslim values right from Muhammad's own mouth, you are are not.
Don't forget many people round the world have been murdered for merely "insulting" the Quran and The Prophet. The Quran is riven with antisemistism - so of course it is a strong element in muslim values today. Islam has never been reformed, has it? It is about time the antisemitism and anti Christian rhetoric was purged from the Quran and from the rest of the Hadith to make Islam fit for purpose as a world religion. Those who refuse to recognise the true nature of this poisonous "faith " are part of the problem.
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Post by Progenitor A on Apr 5, 2018 9:17:39 GMT 1
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Post by jean on Apr 5, 2018 11:29:15 GMT 1
It's a part of it, certainly.
But as your article makes clear, that itself goes back to Christianity, which is precisely where the medieval tropes come from:
“Money is the jealous god of Israel” Marx wrote. “The god of the Jews has become secularised and has become the god of the world.” He jumbled together hostility to private property and capitalism, and his personal hatred of Jews as self-interested, rootless and enablers of secret control, updating miserable medieval tropes for the modern world...
And don't forget that the Jews tended to become financiers rather than landowners because of the biblical prohibition on usury - which Moslems still adhere to, of course.
This is why the marchesa's idea that it's all about Islam is wrong - that's only a part of it, too.
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Post by marchesarosa on Apr 7, 2018 11:53:43 GMT 1
Did it not occur to you, jean, that the Protocols find such fertile soil in Islam because muslims are already highly conditioned to antisemitism via their Holy Bpok and Muhammad's own example?
Jews were second class citizens in the countries overrun by Islam. They had to pay a tax payable only by infidels, they had to wear a certain lowly type of clothing. They could not ride a donkey horse, for example, in case they got ideas above their station.
The fact that under certain muslim administrations Jews could achieve high office does not detract from the fact the they could also be slaughtered at will when Islamic fervour broke out - even in the blessed Al Andalus! Islam is neither "tolerant" nor "peace-loving" Pull your head out of your arse, lady.
Duh!!!
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Post by fascinating on Apr 8, 2018 8:37:25 GMT 1
"Pull your head out of your arse, lady." A typical comment in this "Friendy Chat Room".
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Post by marchesarosa on Apr 11, 2018 11:16:32 GMT 1
Sod off, Louise
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Post by fascinating on Apr 11, 2018 13:32:03 GMT 1
See that Louise, uncalled for nastiness to you when you haven't even said anything!
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Post by mrsonde on Apr 28, 2018 17:30:44 GMT 1
"Pull your head out of your arse, lady." A typical comment in this "Friendy Chat Room". It would be a lot friendlier if those of little humour did as they preached, or otherwise kept their mouths shut.
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Post by mrsonde on Apr 28, 2018 17:39:46 GMT 1
No. Most Western antisemitism is rooted in the European Christian past, even if people don't recognise where their antisemitism is coming from, or see it as antisemitism at all. Today's Muslims get as much of their antisemitism from the Protocols as they do from the Qu'ran. Utter rubbish. Utter, utter, rubbish. Your ignorance is dangerous, lady. People die because of it - that dangerous. Educate yourself, ffs.
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