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Post by havelock on Sept 7, 2010 12:29:42 GMT 1
Can you remind me again how long you have been measuring the pH of the ocean?
The studies that report a 30% change (a difference of 0.1 pH points) say that this has happened over the last 150 years but is predicted to increase as the rate of release of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing.
They also state "Even if all carbon emissions stopped today, we are committed to a further drop of 0.1—0.2 pH units and it will take thousands of years for the oceans to recover."
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 12:33:44 GMT 1
"It wasn't the catches that dried up, it was the quotas - thanks to eco-pressure in the EU. The sea is stuffed with fish. " The parents of my pupils would disagree, and they are the ones who captained and crewed the fleet. Have you seen what trawling does to the sea bed? Sorry, I missed this earlier. The cod moved north during the slight warming since 1970.... The distant water fisheries was closed due to politics, not stock decline. (Icelandic Cod wars???) The North sea inshore fishery has been decimated due to politics again - non sector quota cuts. A triple disaster for the East of England fishermen. I'm no fan of bottom trawling either - a damaging and wasteful form of fishing.
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 12:37:50 GMT 1
Nope, I don't believe findings that I know to be wrong. Sea level rise (136mm in 40 years), 30% fall in Oceanic pH, Cod "endangered", Lobsters in danger of stock collapse, ASP/PSP toxins at dangerous levels in scallops, tidal/wind energy potential (IPCC 4th report)..... need I go on? I'd like your comments on this havelock/lazarus since you neatly side-stepped the issue earlier.
We could start with these three. Lobsters in danger of stock collapse, ASP/PSP toxins at dangerous levels in scallops, tidal/wind energy potential (IPCC 4th report
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 12:41:07 GMT 1
These are examples of government/green movement pseudo science nonsense that I can prove "unequivocally" are tripe.
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Post by lazarus on Sept 7, 2010 13:09:28 GMT 1
These are examples of government/green movement pseudo science nonsense that I can prove "unequivocally" are tripe. I think I will actually fall of my computer chair when you supply links to credible evidence that proves anything you say. It might actually be worth a celebration thread - rsmith7 have evidence!
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 13:12:42 GMT 1
"links to credible evidence" Why not use your links to credible evidence and vast scientific knowledge to crush my arguments about these:
Lobsters in danger of stock collapse, ASP/PSP toxins at dangerous levels in scallops, tidal/wind energy potential (IPCC 4th report
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 13:14:13 GMT 1
I'll start. ASP and PSP toxins in scallops are not a health risk.
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 13:14:33 GMT 1
Now you destroy this assertion.
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Post by havelock on Sept 7, 2010 14:10:56 GMT 1
I'll start. ASP and PSP toxins in scallops are not a health risk. I didn't have a clue as to what ASP and PSP meant so I've learnt something today from this web site www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/FoodborneIllness/FoodborneIllnessFoodbornePathogensNaturalToxins/BadBugBook/ucm070795.htmThey state "All shellfish (filter-feeding molluscs) are potentially toxic. However, PSP is generally associated with mussels, clams, cockles, and scallops" and "PSP: Symptoms of the disease develop fairly rapidly, within 0.5 to 2 hours after ingestion of the shellfish, depending on the amount of toxin consumed. In severe cases respiratory paralysis is common, and death may occur if respiratory support is not provided. When such support is applied within 12 hours of exposure, recovery usually is complete, with no lasting side effects. In unusual cases, because of the weak hypotensive action of the toxin, death may occur from cardiovascular collapse despite respiratory support." if this is wrong I'd like to learn more?
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 14:59:29 GMT 1
PSP toxins resulted in the closure of vast swathes of UK scallop grounds a few years back. The symptoms you describe would only arise if one ate 50kg+ of scallop meat at the highest recorded PSP concentration. In addition, the testing method (mouse bioassay) was found wanting - the symptoms observed in the mice was a result of toxins in the carrier medium rather than the scallops. This dodgy science is further illuminated by the fact that it takes 10 days from when the (supposedly highly toxic) scallops are caught till the fishing closure commences. In that 10 days these "highly toxic" scallops continue to be caught, sold and eaten - by the million. With NO health problems observed. Government + science = bad
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Post by havelock on Sept 7, 2010 15:22:49 GMT 1
I don't wish to be thought of accusing you of being misleading but could you point to an independant reference to your assertation that "The symptoms you describe would only arise if one ate 50kg+ of scallop meat at the highest recorded PSP concentration" as this www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001927.htm paper states "During 1973-1987, state health departments reported 19 PSP outbreaks (mean size: eight persons) to CDC's Foodborne Disease Outbreak Surveillance System. Outbreaks were caused by consumption of mussels, clams, oysters, scallops, and cockles. Outbreaks on the west coast have been reported from May through October, and on the east coast from August through October. " I realise that these are US figures - perhaps your "highest recorded PSP concentration" refers to that found in UK waters only?
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Post by StuartG on Sept 7, 2010 16:37:47 GMT 1
"Most cases of PSP occur in individuals or small groups who gather shellfish for personal consumption. Although PSP has traditionally been considered a risk only in shellfish harvested from cold water, the incidence in tropical areas may be increasing: outbreaks have been reported recently from Central and South America, Asia, and the Pacific region (2,6). " I don't think You are being entirely fair with Your assertions, This sentence comes from the document You point to. This same sentence could apply to mushroom pickers and no doubt other classes of food as well. If Your arguments are taken at face value then the whole fishing industry worldwide should be banned. here's a .pdf about the same [scans ok with Avast!] nsgl.gso.uri.edu/aku/akug98002.pdf in there is a block graph 'Outbreaks of paralytic shellfish poisoning Alaska, 1973-97 (total=83) ' look at the total and the time. Underneath is written Symptoms of 143 people with paralytic shellfish poisoning, Alaska, 1973-94. The dates/amounts don't seem to tie. So it looks that the USA are worried about 'uninformed amateurs' gathering fish stocks etc. A lesson could be learned by others, before the whole industry is 'damned by dimness' StuartG
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Post by havelock on Sept 7, 2010 16:43:21 GMT 1
Stuart - I think you are taking an extreme view of what I posted and linked to.
I was questioning rsmith7's opinion that "PSP toxins in scallops are not a health risk." and have shown that, in the US, they clearly are. In a 14 year period there were 19 outbreaks effecting over 150 people. rsmith7 then said that one would have to eat over 50kg of scallops to suffer any effects.
Did all of these people eat 50kg or are the scallops in USA waters more toxic? - it's a genuine science question
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 17:00:47 GMT 1
The UK "strain" is a US import but appears much less virulent.
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 7, 2010 19:13:56 GMT 1
The point being that a large group of emminent scientists made a biblical arse of the whole shooting match and cost a lot of hard working people - me included - a lot of money. The issue still isn't resolved. Obviously they couldn't hold up their hands and admit their mistake, they just watered down the testing/closure regime in cahoots with the government. We now have to take part in the farcical "end product testing" where we have to buy very expensive test kits and do the job ourselves. I don't bother.
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