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Post by lazarus on Sept 6, 2010 12:44:48 GMT 1
According to the Geological Survey a few days ago; Acidifying Oceans Spell Marine Biological Meltdown 'By End of Century' Rising carbon dioxide levels acidify the ocean, which has a particularly devastating effect on organisms that have calcium carbonate shells, like Foraminifera.‘Forams are well preserved in the fossil record, which is why we chose to study them’, says Dr Hall-Spencer. ‘We knew the results were likely to show a decline in foram diversity but we weren’t expecting such a seismic shift’.
www.geolsoc.org.uk/gsl/views/page8336.htmlThe report is based on this paper; Modern seawater acidification: the response of foraminifera to high-CO2 conditions in the Mediterranean Sea jgs.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/5/843
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 13:10:21 GMT 1
"single celled organisms called Foraminifera around volcanic carbon dioxide vents off Naples in" And what was the concentration of CO2 around these VOLCANIC VENTS??? And how does this relate to the miniscule rise in concentration of the trace gas in the atmosphere? Why do you insist on posting these childish scare stories?
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Post by havelock on Sept 6, 2010 14:05:31 GMT 1
This study illustrates what will happen as the world's oceans become increasingly acidic due to the absorbtion of CO2 from the atmosphere. This is a warning of what will happen to many more organisms than just those studied.
Regardless of whether you think CO2 is causing global warming, we do know that we are emitting lots of CO2. That CO2 has to go somewhere and some of it will end up dissolved in the oceans. That will increase the acidity of the oceans. That will have an impact on the life in those oceans. This study has shown just how sensitive some life in the oceans are to increasing acidification.
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 16:01:12 GMT 1
But to take the super concentrated brine found around a volcanic vent is, at best, mis-leading. To reach these levels in the sea, we would have to burn many times the amount of fossil fuels found on the planet - probably by a factor of thousands....or even millions. Don't you agree?
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Post by havelock on Sept 6, 2010 16:09:27 GMT 1
I think the point is that they looked at all of the marine life both close to and further from the volcanic vents, therefore using the area as a giant laboratory where they could look at acidic and non-acidic water.
Their conclusion was "‘At a mean pH level of 7.8, calcified organisms begin to disappear, and non calcifying ones take over. We are headed towards that being the case in this century. The big concern for me is that unless we curb carbon emissions we risk mass extinctions, degrading coastal waters and encouraging outbreaks of toxic jellyfish and algae."
Their middle sentence is the wake-up call.
With CO2 emissions as they are currently, they believe that much of the world's oceans will reach the level of acidity to cause real damage.
[this is nothing to do with global warming - just straightforward emission of CO2 and its subsequent absorption by the sea]
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Post by havelock on Sept 6, 2010 16:18:33 GMT 1
This is a very useful website for a fisherman www.oceanacidification.org.uk/The opening page states: "The oceans currently absorb approximately half of the CO2 produced by burning fossil fuel; put simply, climate change would be far worse if it were not for the oceans. However, there is a cost to the oceans - when CO2 dissolves in seawater it forms carbonic acid and as more CO2 is taken up by the oceans surface, the pH decreases, moving towards a less alkaline and therefore more acidic state. Already ocean pH has decreased by about 30% and if we continue emitting CO2 at the same rate by 2100 ocean acidity will increase by about 150%, a rate that has not been experienced for at least 400,000 years. Such a monumental alteration in basic ocean chemistry is likely to have wide implications for ocean life, especially for those organisms that require calcium carbonate to build shells or skeletons. Ocean acidification is a relatively new field of research, with most of the studies having been conducted over the last decade. While it is gaining some attention among policy makers, international leaders and the media, scientists find there is still a lack of understanding."
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 16:27:29 GMT 1
"Already ocean pH has decreased by about 30%" Well that's just plain wrong. I take pH readings all the time and they haven't altered a jot in over 20 years.
"Ocean acidification is a relatively new field of research, with most of the studies having been conducted over the last decade. While it is gaining some attention among policy makers, international leaders and the media, scientists find there is still a lack of understanding"
I should say so! If there had been a lowering of ph by 30% the whole shooting match would be knackered. This isn't the case, therefore the story is just nonsense. I suggest you go and find some raw data or some valid proxies to study rather than this blatant propaganda.
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 16:31:24 GMT 1
A quick scan of your link showed up, among the authors, DEFRA and the Royal Society....click...off. Please don't link to political tripe like this again. Interest for a fisherman?.....try primary school kids. They're more impressionable.
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Post by havelock on Sept 6, 2010 16:32:04 GMT 1
I'm sorry if you don't like the science findings. I would have thought that somebody in your position would be interested in this subject and not just dismiss it out of hand.
There are various science projects underway (http://www.oceanacidification.org.uk/research_programme.aspx ) - perhaps you could correspond with these chaps to see if your data is useful for their studies?
"Six projects have now been funded, each delivering a key part of the Programme, designed to answer the following questions:
How much variability is there in oceanic CO2 uptake and what are the trends for the future? Led by Professor Andrew Watson, University of East Anglia
What are the impacts of ocean acidification on key benthic (seabed) ecosystems, communities, habitats, species and their life cycles? Led by Dr Stephen Widdicombe, Plymouth Marine Laboratory
How will ocean acidification affect the biology of surface ocean communities and biogeochemistry, and how that might feedback to climate? Led by Dr Toby Tyrrell, National Oceanography Centre
What are the potential impacts of ocean acidification on the ocean and how it might amplify rising CO2 and climate change? Led by Dr Andy Ridgwell, University of Bristol
How will ocean acidification impact ecosystems and chemical cycling in UK and Arctic regional seas? Led by Dr Jerry Blackford, Plymouth Marine Laboratory
What were the effects of rapid ocean acidification events in the Earth’s past? Led by Professor Paul Pearson, Cardiff University"
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 16:35:18 GMT 1
I have offered my data for study in the past. As soon as it's revealled that it doesn't fit with the "direction" required by the funding bodies, it's dropped like a hot potato. I am very interested in oceanography - it's such a shame that most of the research on-going is conclusion led.
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Post by havelock on Sept 6, 2010 16:38:06 GMT 1
What do you think of this specific point from the article in the OP?
If you choose to believe that all scientists are frauds, charlatans or just plain wrong, why do you bother with a science board?
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 16:42:35 GMT 1
To point out the difference between science and propaganda - I'm afraid you seem to have been "taken in".
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 17:07:52 GMT 1
"The big concern for me is that unless we curb carbon emissions we risk mass extinctions, degrading coastal waters and encouraging outbreaks of toxic jellyfish and algae"
But after 200 years of emissions and a purported massive rise in co2, none of this has happened.
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Post by havelock on Sept 6, 2010 17:38:57 GMT 1
But after 200 years of emissions and a purported massive rise in co2, none of this has happened. I think that you'll find that the massive increase in CO2 over the last 50 years and the forecast greater increase that is of concern. 50 years ago, Europeans tended not to have air conditioning, fridges, central heating, cars, etc (even the Americans didn't all have these). What do you think is going to happen when China and India catch up? There will be an even more massive increase in CO2 emissions and physics/chemistry says that a good proportion of this will end up in the sea. That will acidify the oceans and that will have an effect on marine life. To pretend otherwise is to ignore basic science and to assume the fabled ostrich position.
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Post by rsmith7 on Sept 6, 2010 17:44:38 GMT 1
I've got shellfish tanks that hold 1500Kg of lobster, 500 kg scallops and 1000kg of crab. I need to know the pH and oxygen content. They are fed directly from the sea which I check for pH daily. pH hasn't altered for 20 years. How does this empirical observation sit with your scare story?
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