|
Post by carnyx on Dec 8, 2010 15:23:41 GMT 1
IF tertiary education is such a GOOD THING economically for all involved,
AND we have seen an exponential growth in funding and participants since WWII ....
THEN why are we now in such an economic and social mess?
Does this not call into question the whole concept of state provision of University education in particular, and in the idea of 'state-education' generally?
Is/was the crazy idea of degrees-for-all a function of the class-war?
Or is it more sinister; 'state education' as a huge apparatus of social engineering?
|
|
|
Post by abacus9900 on Dec 8, 2010 18:22:15 GMT 1
Tertiary education must be an improvement over no education at all, surely. Even though people may not possess the ability to gain a first class degree it still gives them an an ability to be employed in jobs that require a good education; we can't all be high fliers and I would have thought that a better educated population is, in general, more economically beneficial to the country than a less educated one.
Perhaps you should look to the excesses of the bankers in order to explain why this and other countries are in such an economic mess.
|
|
|
Post by carnyx on Dec 8, 2010 21:44:38 GMT 1
You say
"Tertiary education must be an improvement over no education at all, surely"
Hm.. what happened to primary and secondary levels, I wonder?
The point, abacus, is that 'more' obviously means 'worse'
And those bankers with the bonuses? ... University Graduates to a man (or woman)
BTW, check out our status in the education league tables.. after a doubling of funding over the past decade.
I am talking about a systemic problem here, and appreciation of such problems requires an ability to take a wider perspective.
|
|
|
Post by speakertoanimals on Dec 9, 2010 2:46:23 GMT 1
Arguing that we're in a social and economic mess because our population is becoming too educated? Perhaps you'd like to explain where all the jobs are going to come from if we have a work-force with LESS skills? Especially since having a degree doesn't stop you from taking on a job that doesn't require such qualifications if that is all you can find. Or are you going to try to argue that what we really need is more plumbers and white-van drivers, rather than university graduates.........................
|
|
|
Post by Progenitor A on Dec 9, 2010 9:23:59 GMT 1
Hi Carnyx, welcome back There certainly does seem to be a correlation between our descent into third-world status and the explosive expansion of degree courses, many run by ex-Technical Colleges that are quite worthless - indeed I am surprised that some of the ex-Poly-Wolly-Working-Mens-Institute 'educational' Establishments have not been taken to court for fraud - perhaps the reason is that the students they attract are so bloody stupid anyway that they do not realise they are being conned. So we have floods of students with one A level at standard D (gained through course work undoubtedly plagiarised from the internet) entering 'degree' course in the appalling repositories of left-wing Islamic ferment such as the University of Sarf London or similar, degree courses that will fit them for nothing, with in some cases more than 47% of them leaving the course before it is completed, because even in dumbed-down Meeja and Tourism studies or Waste Disposal with Street-Dance courses it is necessary for them to sometimes write and, even taking into consideration the 'liberalism' of their functionally illiterate lecturers to express themselves properly in English, far too many find writing a right-wing imposition, that combined with their lack of interest and inability means that they must take their rejection notices to bearded and kaftaned scribes squatting in the needle-strewn corridors of higher learning before they realise they have been sacked. If anyone thinks that this is a mild exaggeration of a controversialist then please examine the OECD report on British education So we have hordes of semi-literate, innumerate youngsters leaving our appalling secondary education system and entering our equally appalling tertiary education system to study quite useless degree courses for which they are totally ill-equipped , and hordes of them leaving two years later having failed every examination placed in front of them, faced with debts of £20-30k which they will be unable to pay back because they are only suited for the lowest paid jobs and there are hordes of Poles, Romanians, Chinese, Nigerians, Somalis, Vietnamese (you namer it)competing for those low-paid jobs, willing to live in the most hideous conditions whilst they are paid the minimum wage or less, so our British youth go on the scrap-heap of unemployment (recent statistics show that there are currently 1.6 million unemployed people that have never had a job). So we have the phenomenon of 20-year olds supinely accepting a lifetime of state dependency whilst playing computer-games in spliff-reeking bedrooms.
The dissolute degeneracy of a whole generation, generation after generation
And for our total expenditure on education of over £80billion per annum, the returns are minimal and we are left with a half-educated workforce that does not have the right attitude to work, lacks the skills for work and does not want to work anyway. We spend more than twice as much on failing to educate our youngsters as we do to defend ourselves!
What a goddam awful mess!
Compare us to Germany for example Germany came out of WW2 with ALL its major cities flattened - devastated, it industries ruined or dismantled and exported. Yet within 50 years they had ,once again, the strongest economy in Europe, the third strongest economy in the world. Then they had an enormous setback, Communism collapsed and they were reunited with the the third-world economy that was East Germany. Within 10 year they has transformed the infrastructure of that state and re-invigorated and modernised its industries. And now Germany is the indomitable economic power in Europe once again
And Germany is a country that knows what it wants from education. It respects its engineers, its technician engineers, its technicians and has massive training programmes dedicated to training such people.And look at the results! Look at Siemens an enormous electrical -engineering based conglomerate that easily competes with the Far east and produces goods of superb quality. Now look at the UK electrical engineering industry! Look at its car industry and compare it to ours. Sure our best Universities are up there in the top ten, but overall our tertiary education system is not fit for purpose, it is a waste of people, a waste of money, a waste of valuable national resources
If the new tuition fees policies causes that collapse of this shabby shanty-town of government -funded incompetence, then that is all for the national good. Certainly only the mentally retarded youngsters will attend such 'universities' as the Sarf Landan Poly-Wolly when they will be faced with debts of over £50k when they leave with their useless slip of paper entitling them to a degree that is no use to anyone
About time the whole rotten system is shaken up
|
|
|
Post by carnyx on Dec 9, 2010 10:05:15 GMT 1
Well, yes. A lot of Polish plumbers are graduates, who charge the going rate for doing useful stuff for other people. And having saved up, they go back to Poland with their dosh, to set up in business to become the next generation of employers and tax-generators.
Also, a lot of those White Van drivers are UK graduates, now engaged in doing useful things for other people in all sorts of ways.
So, STA; if Education is such a Good Thing ... can you have too much of it? And by looking at the state of the UK, it seems that the answer is yes.
|
|
|
Post by principled on Dec 9, 2010 12:42:35 GMT 1
naymissus Firstly, my apologies for the length of this post. I have been reluctant to enter this discussion as other posters might see me as being partisan or even biased by my own experiences. But I think, as someone who transferred from industry to teach engineering technology, as someone who has interviewed and employed graduates and as someone who has children who have received a university education, I feel I may have a contribution to make.
Like many of my ilk in the 60s, I left school at 16 and became an apprentice and continued studying by day and night for the next 10+ years to gain the professional quals that most employers required. There were few graduates, although many of the top design engineers were graduates.
As the popularity of apprenticeships was high, entry was usually by entrance exam and training and education was well structured through the various Industry Training Boards supported by a levy from employers. Those that failed became machine/production line "fodder".That "safety net" is no longer available as we have very little production left. In the 80s, the boards were disbanded and the government of the time decided that our future lay in the service industries. Apprenticeships nose-dived and 'university for all" became the buzz word.
The increase in the number of institutions offering degrees, through new institutions and the change of polys to unis, enticed many who would have been apprentices to go to uni. Now, I have no doubt that these were sufficiently intelligent to get a decent degree, but as the admissions net widened under "universal equality" then something had to give (entry quals) and we saw a plethora of degrees being offered of dubious quality and content to cater for this increase, many in subjects that offered those studying them little possibility of getting a "high paid job". This was something that the universities never made plain to their students. Everyone acquiesced to the image of get a degree and it's all 'motherhood and apple pie, with a dollop of icing" for the rest of your life.
Today, we have vastly more graduates but many less people with the knowledge, skills or experience to take us forward in anything technologically innovative, hence our need to "import" skilled workers, technicians, engineers.... At the same time, we have realised that our future is not in the service sector.
However, having said all of that, I believe that all is not lost. you said:
I ran an engineering training dept. which worked closely with industry. This closeness resulted in many visits from training depts. in Germany, Sweden and even Egypt to see how education and training needs could be tailored to meet the needs of industry. I know of a number of universities who are similarly close to industry. I make this point to show that the picture may not be as bleak as you paint. But keeping up with industry is incredibly expensive. The only way we were able to do it with the level of funding we received was to offer our technology facilities as a 'working showroom for their equipment" in exchange for being able to use that equipment for student use FOC. Unfortunately, there are only so many "showrooms" a company needs to display its products.
Having said that, I do have worries. In the year that i retired, two of my staff went to China to teach English and Maths. On their return 2 years later, they had gone to teach in a secondary school whilst finding more permanent positions. They were horrified. In China, they had trouble getting the students OUT of the class at the end of the lesson and even had students knocking on their door in order to be given MORE work. Back in the UK., they were exposed to indiscipline, rowdiness and low standards. They returned very quickly to FE, where at least discipline was not an issue. Now, from what I hear, the "laid back" attitude of some students seems to continue well into university, perhaps paying for tuition may help focus their mind, otherwise we really will be completely overtaken by the emerging nations.
Tuition fees may also bring an end to qualification "inflation", where employers seem to think that to stack shelve requires some sort of a degree. So, by all means offer degrees in Underwater Shelf Stacking, but don't expect me as a tax payer to fund it.
I also hope that the government will now use its financial muscle to offer to subsidise degrees that will help the UK citizens/economy as a whole, as many of these are expensive to run and many establishments have withdrawn from them because of it. P
|
|
|
Post by Progenitor A on Dec 9, 2010 13:13:01 GMT 1
A very good, thoughtful and well considered posting Principled. Your background is surprisingly close to mine - I too served an apprenticeship and got my degree in my late twenties. I developed my own engineering training company and have written text-books on my specialism. The only work I do now is to appear as an expert witness for Law Firms contesting Patent claims in the US and here.
It breaks my heart to see how we are failing our kids with our educational sysytem
|
|
|
Post by speakertoanimals on Dec 9, 2010 13:18:29 GMT 1
We still don't have enough, judging by the unthinking tripe that some people come out with on here (probably plagiarised from the pages of the Daily Mail.............).
As regards apprenticeships -- did no one spot the simple fact that british manufacturing went down the tubes? No point having appenticeships in that case.
I do think we have done students a dis-service, not by offering duff degrees, but by mucking about with A-levels, too many modular courses and too much spoon-feeding. Which means many of them just aren't prepared for what is required at degree level.
The point about degrees is that to some extent, their worth ISN'T just the name of the degree -- whatever the degree, a student gains useful transferable skills. We then also have the important experience of living elsewhere, being responsible for your own study, and so on.
The problem perhaps is not so much duff degrees, but the failure to get kids doing enough basic stuff like science maths and languages at 14. Because if you lose it at 14, then they will have no choice at 18 but to do some noddy-sounding degree. Not helped by some kids getting terrible advice as to subject combinations (to bump up the grades, rather than give them a combination that is going to be useful). And I will admit, our reluctance to admit that some people will fail -- a good pass being C and above, and no one ever fails. Except when you get to uni, it isn't that simple any more, and some people just aren't ready for that either. Some weaker students seem to take the view that since they never failed at school, they have paid their money, and its our job to get them to pass.................
|
|
|
Post by speakertoanimals on Dec 9, 2010 14:09:04 GMT 1
Which explains a lot then, because for some reason, those from a engineering background often assume they can get a handle on fundamental physics, which is often not the case.
|
|
|
Post by Progenitor A on Dec 9, 2010 14:45:48 GMT 1
Which explains a lot then, because for some reason, those from a engineering background often assume they can get a handle on fundamental physics, which is often not the case. ;DWell, I have never met an engineer that writes ungrammatical muddled sentences such as you do - (a clear indication of confused thinking), nor one that waffles and has such capacity for obfuscatry befuddlement I take it you that if you do teach it is Domestic science at the equivalent of the Sarf Landan Poly-Wolly. If you are an academic (I do not think that you are) I would regard you as symptomatic of all that is wrong with British education and a paradigm for the decline of educational standards Anyone that gets in such a disgraceful (for a physicist)muddle about quite clear physical concepts as you exhibited with the Path Losses thread is certainly not a physicist.
|
|
|
Post by abacus9900 on Dec 9, 2010 16:27:25 GMT 1
This will simply revert to the situation that existed at a time when ordinary kids, who did not come from a particularly academic or well-to-do background, could not look forward to anything better than routine, dead-end, soul-destroying jobs that were endured rather than enjoyed. Self-respect and aspirational prospects of free university education has given 'average' kids a new sense of worth and self-respect that did not exist in the past and you, as a tax payer, want to take that away. How meanness leads us into a society that becomes divided, and in the end, damaged. The Second World War brought together many layers of society not experienced before and I think this policy is the first step in restoring the polarisation between the 'haves' and 'have nots' and frankly could have come from the manifesto of the American Republican party, an organization that the current members of the Tory party (and yes, probably some Lib Dems too) seem to look to as the role model for the way every society should be organized.
|
|
|
Post by carnyx on Dec 9, 2010 17:55:50 GMT 1
@abacus
I really think you ought to go over some of the assumptions behind your thinking .. maybe it is time for an overhaul?
For example:
[quote a new sense of worth and self-respect that did not exist in the past [/quote]
Er?
And;
In the light of 1.9M or so people who have NEVER worked, are we to assume that this form of existence is somehow better for them? Where is the dignity, the pride, the zest, fitness, the comradeship, the satisfaction of achievement, of something well done? The basic feeling of caring for others?
Rather, you seem to think that all these things are worth trading for a life of unwork ... which in fact is more impossible to escape from than any 'dead-end-job' ever was.
But au fond I suspect in your thinking is a kind of denial of the fact of mortality, and the very idea of such a thing as human spirit. As death tends to be unthinkable to adolescents, who generally have an excess of spirit ... I suspect your sentimentality springs from that era in your own life. Time to put aside such careless childish attitudes, and show some adult concern for our next generations?
Have 'we' done the best for 'them'... at least as good as 'they' did for our generation?
Looking at the figures, somehow I suspect not .. despite doubling the spend on state education in the last decade, by any measure .. things are worse for them.
Why is that, do you suppose?
|
|
|
Post by principled on Dec 9, 2010 18:51:01 GMT 1
Abacus
How many years have you spent with students who had no self-worth? I spent 30 years. I found it soul-destroying when a student would say to me "I can't do/understand x because I'm thick". I saw my job as an educator to motivate such students, to get them to understand that we may not all be Einsteins, but we all capable of something, and that "something' had a worth in society.
The difference between you and me is that you seem to equate worth and self-respect with going to university, I don't. I see it as achieving what you are capable of achieving. Many current university courses are not worth the paper they are written on, and employers know it. But the students aren't told till this until it is too late. I want there to be a true educational progression system, where people can step off at any point when they have achieved their goal and for that goal to be recognised as worth something. Parity of educational esteem, if you like.
For example, I applauded foundation degrees- indeed my team wrote one. This gave students progression from GCSE though a variety of quals- incl "A" level- to the final 4 terms of a degree at Uni if they so wished. Or they could stop at a point en-route and step off, perhaps to return later or not at all. A true program that gave all of them the opportunity to achieve what they wanted without DUPLICATION (an important point that I will explain if you wish). That's what I call ensuring self-worth. And you?
Of course I am sad that as a nation the action of a few reckless bankers has resulted in us being much poorer than we were, to the extent that we need to trim education budgets along with others. But equally I'm sad that despite the proliferation of degrees and graduates, we still have to "import" so many skilled people.
Finally, I'd like to reply to STA. I know not your age nor whether you were old enough in the 80s to understand the implications of the government's switch to a service based economy, where we could live by selling each other insurance, by buying and selling property, or flogging imported goods. This policy effectively nailed the lid to the coffin of our manufacturing sector. Banks -driven by their accountants- were reluctant to fund long-term projects, preferring short termism and the guaranteed returns you get (got) from property and retail. Most of us based near the centres of industry (in my case the auto industry) knew what the outcome would be. And now you and everyone else can see it.
P
|
|
|
Post by speakertoanimals on Dec 9, 2010 19:00:40 GMT 1
Well, I know the truth of the matter, and I'm not at all surprised that you are unwilling to accept this, else you'd have to accept that all those times I told you you were just plain wrong, you were actually wrong. If you could do that, you might learn something, but I see no prospect of that at the moment.
It's always the least able students who have the most inflated views of their own ability.
|
|