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Post by Progenitor A on Jul 10, 2018 17:06:26 GMT 1
With the resignations of 2 Senior Ministers, nearly the whole of the Cabinet are now Remainers.
Gove is a busted flush - a turd polisher - who will never be trusted by the people again.
Certainly, the new Sec. O .State for Brexit is a Leaver -Hunt, but as May, the arch apparatchik has demonstrated to startling effect, such people are easily sidelined and the real negotiator will be her controlling Mandarin - Olly Robbins. He of course, is of Brussels, for Brussels and against Brexit.
The augurs for Brexit are not good - she is committing us to Brussels control in perpetuity (the 'Common Rule Book' is Simply EU Law), fatally inhibiting our ability to negotiate trade deals external to the EU, introducing a form of free movement called 'mobility framework', and committing us to pay to belong to a trading area where we have a trading deficit of £80 billion pa.
As Boris Jonson has said, with this negotiating package we will become a vassal state - a colony of the EU. As Jacob Rees-Mogg has said 'this is the ultimate 'management of decline'' - the Civil Service disease that we thought Thatcher had eradicated. Charles Moore in the Telegraph called it the'Turd Way'
Every sensible person knows we have never been a democracy - that our rulers know what is best for us and simply ignore the populous in between elections. But never have the anti- democratic levers of power, normally discreetly hidden from the hoi polloi, been so brazenly pulled by the establishment in order to thwart democracy.
If this goes through -as it well might if she has control of Conservative MPs , then it is surely the end of the Conservative Party. What we lack, is an alternative party outside the establishment such as has happened in the Continent
I see serious trouble ahead
Meanwhile, a new phrase has entered the political lexicon to compete with 'clarity' 'transparency', 'sustainability'. It is 'Significant Evolution', which is when you abandon your principles (red lines) as repeatedly stated to the electorate and political colleagues, and bounce them into something entirely different
As Groucho Marx said 'These are my principles, and if you do not like them, I have got others'
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Post by mrsonde on Jul 10, 2018 17:38:15 GMT 1
It is all quite astonishing. You're absolutely right - Gove isn't the only one the public will never trust again, and nor is the Tory Party: it's the whole system. The really farcical irony is that then these establishment elitist middle-class "liberal" fascist types like Aqua wring their hands in supercilious horror when the working classes they're screwing elect an alternative voice like Trump or Farage.
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Post by alancalverd on Jul 11, 2018 23:11:23 GMT 1
Strangely, I'm not upset by the "common rule book" as long as it only applies to trade with the EU. Right now, the book says that all and only goods meeting EU specifications may be traded within the Union. That has not prevented complete outsiders such as China and Japan manufacturing goods to EU specifications, and AFAIK nobody within the EU actually grows bananas, so there's no problem for third parties to export food to the EU as long as the bananas are straight enough.
The advantage of "using the book" from outside the EU is that you can export to the EU if you wish, and since the EU's internal market is constrained by the book, you can import compliant goods from the EU if you wish, but your own home market is not constrained, so you can manufacture 3500 watt vacuum cleaners and safe electrical equipment in general, and eat as many bent bananas as you want.
Norway is a beneficiary of this process. By not subscribing to the Common Fisheries policy, they have protected their fish stocks against indiscriminate trawling. They can still export "EU size" fish to the EU, and consume all the smaller stuff that an EU fisherman would have to destroy (because it can't be sold in the EU) in the home market.
Some of my UK clients have saved huge sums of money buying EU-manufactured medical equipment in the USA, for 30 - 50% less than they would have to pay a European distributor. It is entirely legal to use it in the UK, but because the EU market is protected by the book, the European price is not subject to real competition. Interestingly it is entirely legal to buy and use American or Japanese equipment that does not claim to meet the EU specification, in the UK (or indeed anywhere) but illegal to "place it on the market" in Europe, so you have to do your shopping by internet or, for large items, by visiting trade shows and suppliers overseas.
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Post by alancalverd on Jul 12, 2018 10:00:36 GMT 1
As Jacob Rees-Mogg has said 'this is the ultimate 'management of decline'' - the Civil Service disease that we thought Thatcher had eradicated. "Management of decline" was indeed the task of the civil service in a world where the Empire was being dismantled and public services sold off to Tory party donors. What Thatcher did was to expedite the process by politicising the civil service and claiming that decline was not a disease, thus paving the way for the terminal decline and surrender of Britain under B Liar. |
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Post by mrsonde on Jul 12, 2018 15:45:42 GMT 1
As Jacob Rees-Mogg has said 'this is the ultimate 'management of decline'' - the Civil Service disease that we thought Thatcher had eradicated. "Management of decline" was indeed the task of the civil service in a world where the Empire was being dismantled and public services sold off to Tory party donors. What Thatcher did was to expedite the process by politicising the civil service and claiming that decline was not a disease, thus paving the way for the terminal decline and surrender of Britain under B Liar.  Finally, I think I understand. Solid evidence for the multiverse and the existence of communication through white holes, given enough long-term exposure to MRI radiation. In Alan's universe, the communists really are nice people, very nice people, and Trump really is like Hitler, cos Adolf was a fat blond pussy-grabber and the Holocaust really is fake news, and Britain is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of the West Side Boys. |
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Post by mrsonde on Jul 12, 2018 16:17:31 GMT 1
Strangely, I'm not upset by the "common rule book" as long as it only applies to trade with the EU. Right now, the book says that all and only goods meeting EU specifications may be traded within the Union. That has not prevented complete outsiders such as China and Japan manufacturing goods to EU specifications, and AFAIK nobody within the EU actually grows bananas, so there's no problem for third parties to export food to the EU as long as the bananas are straight enough. The advantage of "using the book" from outside the EU is that you can export to the EU if you wish, and since the EU's internal market is constrained by the book, you can import compliant goods from the EU if you wish, but your own home market is not constrained, so you can manufacture 3500 watt vacuum cleaners and safe electrical equipment in general, and eat as many bent bananas as you want. Norway is a beneficiary of this process. By not subscribing to the Common Fisheries policy, they have protected their fish stocks against indiscriminate trawling. They can still export "EU size" fish to the EU, and consume all the smaller stuff that an EU fisherman would have to destroy (because it can't be sold in the EU) in the home market. Some of my UK clients have saved huge sums of money buying EU-manufactured medical equipment in the USA, for 30 - 50% less than they would have to pay a European distributor. It is entirely legal to use it in the UK, but because the EU market is protected by the book, the European price is not subject to real competition. Interestingly it is entirely legal to buy and use American or Japanese equipment that does not claim to meet the EU specification, in the UK (or indeed anywhere) but illegal to "place it on the market" in Europe, so you have to do your shopping by internet or, for large items, by visiting trade shows and suppliers overseas. I don't think anyone has ever complained about common standards of manufactured goods - it's not a problem, as you say. As for farming - I wish Europe's standards were anywhere as high as ours, but the French would never stand for it. "Common standards" is not what the EU has ever been about - they only like to pretend it is, to field what-good-are-you-anyway criticism. And transparently, May is doing the same thing here. The "common rule book" she's really referring to is the one Barnier has alredy said is the EU's real "red line": we can;t trade with their internal market if we don't adhere to what they call a "level playing field". By which he means the whole politico-economic rulebook of the Lisbon Treaty - no government subsidies of industry, no economic stimulus through cutting tax rates, no deficit funding beyond 3%, no capital incentives for foreign investment, no preferential trading terms with non-EU partners, and basically anything else that would make us in any way more competitive and less sclerotic than Europe. That's what she's really agreeing to. It'll be interesting to see if Brussels insists on spelling this out or whether they'll go along with her attempts to slip it through under the radar. If they do state it clearly, her government will fall. Then the interesting thing is: does the Labour Party finally get a dose of honesty and state their position clearly? So far, Corbyn has managed to finesse his fndamental opposition to these "common rules" - because they basically legally castrate his whole economic prospectus - but in an ensuing election, brought about by Brussels bluntly defenestrating May, they couldn't possibly continue getting away with such subterfuge. |
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Post by alancalverd on Jul 12, 2018 18:20:20 GMT 1
The "common rule book" she's really referring to is the one Barnier has alredy said is the EU's real "red line": we can;t trade with their internal market if we don't adhere to what they call a "level playing field". By which he means the whole politico-economic rulebook of the Lisbon Treaty - no government subsidies of industry, no economic stimulus through cutting tax rates, no deficit funding beyond 3%, no capital incentives for foreign investment, no preferential trading terms with non-EU partners, and basically anything else that would make us in any way more competitive and less sclerotic than Europe. Beats me how the Russians sell gas, the Arabs oil, and the Japanese, Chinese and Americans just about everything else, in Europe against such overwhelming restrictions. Probably by ignoring them, and letting the EU consumer pay the import duty. As I said about my chums in Belarus (and other clients in the USA), international trade is a doddle as long as your accountant is on the ball and your customers have some hard currency. If you sell in Europe, the customer just pays extra for the privilege of supporting German industry and French farming. |
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Post by aquacultured on Jul 13, 2018 0:00:15 GMT 1
The really farcical irony is that then these establishment elitist middle-class "liberal" fascist types like Aqua wring their hands in supercilious horror when the working classes they're screwing elect an alternative voice like Trump or Farage. Are you really sure you want to keep trotting out such hackneyed mendacious drivel, which is an insult to the intelligence, including your self-proclaimed supreme one? (And who elected Farage to what?) |
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Post by mrsonde on Jul 13, 2018 1:49:19 GMT 1
The really farcical irony is that then these establishment elitist middle-class "liberal" fascist types like Aqua wring their hands in supercilious horror when the working classes they're screwing elect an alternative voice like Trump or Farage. Are you really sure you want to keep trotting out such hackneyed mendacious drivel, which is an insult to the intelligence Nothing mendacious about it: it's the unvarnished truth. The fact that you don't realise it, because you listen to your "gut feelings" rather than anything your brain might be able to say if you ever put in the slightest effort to think a bit about it, doesn't make it any the less so. You're completely unable to offer a single reason why we should stay in the EU, or why anyone but middle-class public servants and corporate executives who extract their wealth from the labour of struggling working people should even want to. I thank you for the implied compliment, inaccurate though it is. The voters. Remember them? To that great democratic institution, the EU parliament, for one thing. Then members - ordinary people - of the political party formed to get us out of this fascist organisation who elected him as their very effective leader, for another. If youi think he or Trump are some sort of exceptional temporary hiccup in your rule by exploitative mandarin, take a look at Italy, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Germany, Sweden, Greece, and everywhere else in Europe where the electorate are coming out on the streets to protest. |
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Post by Progenitor A on Jul 13, 2018 9:16:41 GMT 1
As Jacob Rees-Mogg has said 'this is the ultimate 'management of decline'' - the Civil Service disease that we thought Thatcher had eradicated. "Management of decline" was indeed the task of the civil service in a world where the Empire was being dismantled and public services sold off to Tory party donors. What Thatcher did was to expedite the process by politicising the civil service and claiming that decline was not a disease, thus paving the way for the terminal decline and surrender of Britain under B Liar. In view of what you say it is somewhat surprising that our economy was transformed under Thatcher and she set an economic model that has been coied by much of the First World countries |
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Post by Progenitor A on Jul 13, 2018 9:20:32 GMT 1
Strangely, I'm not upset by the "common rule book" as long as it only applies to trade with the EU. The rule book will be our rule book and will surely apply to all our trading arrangements - that is the interpreataion of many, including, it seems Mr Trump |
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Post by alancalverd on Jul 13, 2018 14:40:56 GMT 1
Utter stupidity, in that case. The major trading nations of the world (USA, China, Japan) have entirely different internal market rules and specifications from the EU. For once, Trump is right.
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Post by alancalverd on Jul 13, 2018 14:52:57 GMT 1
In view of what you say it is somewhat surprising that our economy was transformed under Thatcher and she set an economic model that has been coied by much of the First World countries Not quite. Whilst the management of some if not all public assets has been contracted to private industries elsewhere, the asset itself remains in public ownership. Water is a particularly good example. Eaux de France is responsible for delivery and quality control, but the rain that falls on France belongs to the Republic, as also in the USA. In the UK you can be accused of stealing or misusing the rain that falls on your garden because it actually belongs to your privatised water company (Eaux de France, in my case!) The "economic model" seems to be gradually abandoning mining, manufacturing and agriculture to the point of being wholly dependent on others for essentials. This has not happened in France, Germany or the USA. Likewise the NHS. Obviously consumables and capital equipment have to be bought from private suppliers, as always, but land and buildings in civilised countries remain the property of the state. Here, NHS staff cannot change a light bulb, and the idiotic "Sainsburys" management structure imposed by Thatcher's mob as a precursor to full privatisation has led to management overheads approaching US levels. |
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Post by mrsonde on Jul 13, 2018 22:20:05 GMT 1
In view of what you say it is somewhat surprising that our economy was transformed under Thatcher and she set an economic model that has been coied by much of the First World countries Not quite. Whilst the management of some if not all public assets has been contracted to private industries elsewhere, the asset itself remains in public ownership. Water is a particularly good example. Eaux de France is responsible for delivery and quality control, but the rain that falls on France belongs to the Republic, as also in the USA. In the UK you can be accused of stealing or misusing the rain that falls on your garden because it actually belongs to your privatised water company (Eaux de France, in my case!) The "economic model" seems to be gradually abandoning mining, manufacturing and agriculture to the point of being wholly dependent on others for essentials. This has not happened in France, Germany or the USA. Likewise the NHS. Obviously consumables and capital equipment have to be bought from private suppliers, as always, but land and buildings in civilised countries remain the property of the state. If you're talking about France: no, they don't. And why should they? Look - everyone needs to eat, and if they don't everyone gets hungry, which is a bad thing. So, the State should step in and make sure no one ever goes hungry. You get hungry, here's your food, free of charge. To do this, does the State need to own all the farms, and the whole food production network? Yes, you say, because no one should profit from such an essential human right as not being hungry. But then there are people who like to eat, a lot, and get a bit upset when they can't. Well, you can't discriminate - give em what they want. But eventually can we afford to pay for all these obese people, eating what they want, when they want? I was flabberghasted the other day to read that on average Brits visit the NHS more than six times a year! What??! I had to research it to verify this amazing figure, but it does seem to be true. That's incredible to me - I've maybe visited the doctor three times in forty years as an adult, and another four or five times to hospital, all of them involuntarily, compelled by some State authority or another, for various accidents or fights, as if they owned my body. I'm not particularly uber-healthy and super-fit, and I do lead what any doctor or health and safety expert would undoubtedly calla high-risk lifestyle - I drink like a fish, smoke like a chimney, play dangerously physical sports, have engaged in highly dangerous work, and so forth. Six times a year? For free? No wonder we're broke as a country. |
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Post by aquacultured on Jul 14, 2018 0:05:58 GMT 1
I think you're forgetting that a lot of sexually active people, pregnant women, babies and the under-5s are bound to visit their GP or hospital quite a lot, as a matter of routine, which ensures as far as possible that they're pretty healthy up to age 40-or-so.
Then, when much older, many people need a lot of treatment, which enables them to live longer; and the longer they live the more treatment they need.
Your astonishment astonishes me.
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Finally, I think I understand. Solid evidence for the multiverse and the existence of communication through white holes, given enough long-term exposure to MRI radiation. In Alan's universe, the communists really are nice people, very nice people, and Trump really is like Hitler, cos Adolf was a fat blond pussy-grabber and the Holocaust really is fake news, and Britain is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of the West Side Boys.