Are we alone?

[jonjel]

Is is possible that with the billions of stars and trillions of planets we are the only intelligent life form that exists, or has ever existed?

[Progenitor A]

Jan 11, 2011 10:50:36 GMT 1 jonjel said:

Is is possible that with the billions of stars and trillions of planets we are the only intelligent life form that exists, or has ever existed?

No, logically that would not appear to be the case
And don't forget God

There is a long-lasting hypothesis that He created us in his likeness - so there is at least one other intelligent life form

[jonjel]

Naymissus.

Well, that depends entirely on what you believe, or which god if any you follow. I had not for one moment considered this would become a debate about religion, or faith.

[Progenitor A]

Jan 11, 2011 11:20:40 GMT 1 jonjel said:

Naymissus.

Well, that depends entirely on what you believe, or which god if any you follow. I had not for one moment considered this would become a debate about religion, or faith.

Yes indeed it does

But why should it not become a debate upon the God hypothesis?

Admittedly the hypothesis that other life forms exist in the Universe is testable in principle (whereas the God hypothesis is not), nevertheless we are equally ignorant of the truth or otherwise of both hypotheses

[carnyx]

I was interested to see a while back the derivation of the formula that shows that the odds are in favour of there being 'life' elsewhere in the universe

However, what do you mean by 'intelligent'?

[jonjel]

That is a very difficult one to answer carnyx. I suppose it has to be animal as opposed to vegetable; something which is able to forage for its sustenance and multiply would be the minimum I think.

[carnyx]

In that case, the answer must be that there are, or have been, many many instances of such creatures in the universe.

I say this because it seems that, given quite a large 'goldilocks' zone, life will be chemically inevitable.

But, I suspect that the evolution of truly sapient creatures such as humans, that can communicate across space, will be rare.

[jonjel]

I once heard it said that should alien forces ever decide to visit us we should hide as opposed to laying on a party for them.

The reason given was that almost every invading force in history has been a violent subjugating one, so don't trust the little green men!

[speakertoanimals]

But why should it not become a debate upon the God hypothesis?

Admittedly the hypothesis that other life forms exist in the Universe is testable in principle (whereas the God hypothesis is not), nevertheless we are equally ignorant of the truth or otherwise of both hypotheses

Just because we are equally ignorant on both means we can have the same fairly pointless what's your opinion debate about both, but that's not a scientific debate.

We may be ignorant as to the existence of other life, but given what we know about cosmology, astrophysics, other planetary systems, biogenesis and evolution, we can say something useful about it. Whereas when it comes to god..................

[carnyx]

biogenesis and evolution, we can say something useful about it. Whereas when it comes to god..................

We can say quite a lot about God in scientific terms, actually.

For example, even a cursory look at human evolution shows an evolutionary advantage conferred by a belief in God.

In a nutshell, STA; if God did not exist, neither would you.

[speakertoanimals]

We can say quite a lot about God in scientific terms, actually.

For example, even a cursory look at human evolution shows an evolutionary advantage conferred by a belief in God.

In a nutshell, STA; if God did not exist, neither would you.

Evolutionary propensity, perhaps, evolutionary ADVANTAGE, that is anothern thing!

And just because there might be some benefit in belief, doesn't mean there is any truth as regards the object of that belief.

So, stop being silly!

[carnyx]

Ah, STA!

Of course God exists! Of course God does not exist! How do we deal with this duality?

God is defined as transcendent ( i.e. god is beyond the Universe, and beyond the mind of man) and also immanent, (i.e god does not have a physical existence, but exists within the mind of man).

And so in the strictly objective sense, God really does exist. If you wish to invoke the 'belief' argument, then Physics is also immanent, i.e. it has no physical or independent existence beyond the mind of man. And, physics also attempts to encompass the universe and so is transcendent. Whilst physics is clearly a set of beliefs, no-one claims that physics does not exist.

Then you talk about 'truth' .. which is a slippery property, and you will need to define it a little more tightly if you argument is to hold.

But, a look at the history of Homo Sapiens shows that god has been subject to natural selection, and has conferred a survival advantage not only to the species as a whole, but to those groups who have evolved the best god. Ergo, evolution applies to god, (and physics).

[abacus9900]

Jan 11, 2011 17:18:05 GMT 1 jonjel said:

I once heard it said that should alien forces ever decide to visit us we should hide as opposed to laying on a party for them.

There is an overwhelming weight of evidence that either a) we have and are being visited by advanced ET civilisations or b) that we do, in fact, share this planet with advanced beings that have a technology far in advance of our own and are seen by us only when they choose to be seen. The latter are termed 'Ultraterrestrials' and it may be that both of these possibilities are true, i.e., there may exist levels of reality at present beyond our current scientific understanding, so that both advanced beings from our own planet, as well as those originating elsewhere, have access to travel through a multi-dimensional 'hyperspace', which to them is all simply part of the greater reality. As an analogy, consider forest dwellers of, say, the Amazon. For them, the 'world' would be entirely made up of the forest in which they dwell and anything beyond would be outside of their comprehension and, therefore, not effectively exist for them. The same may be the case for Homo-Sapiens in the sense that our definitions of reality might simply be equivalent to our current scientific understanding of what it is which could well be quite primitive.

Where is the scientific evidence, I hear you ask? The answer is that there is no incontrovertible 'hard' scientific evidence but what there is is an overwhelming amount of 'circumstantial' evidence that powerfully points to the conclusion that we are sharing the skies with other, much more advanced, beings. Only recently I observed what appeared to be a triangular formation of 'stars' high up in the sky from by bedroom window which, after a little time, began slowly to move and maneuver. This was at around 1am in the morning and despite living near to London Airport was absolutely not any conventional aircraft I am aware of. Not chinese lanterns either, since they all moved in concert as if fixed to one another and were performing what appeared to be a search pattern. I also got the distinct feeling that they somehow were aware of my observing them and may even have appeared because I expected them to, although I admit this is a rather fanciful thing to say, but even so it's the impression I had at the time. Just because science does not have any 'solid' evidence for such things does not necessarily mean that they do not exist.