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Post by alancalverd on Jun 6, 2018 7:24:07 GMT 1
We have heard the joke "We are now landing in Gaza. Please set your watches back 3000 years." Apparently it isn't a joke - time really does flow backwards. So whilst choosing your friendly stone to take on your peaceful Sunday walk, you phone for a fleet of ambulances because you know that 7000 other peaceful walkers will spontaneously join you in this afternoon of love, and your neighbours will be so overwhelmed by your charming and peaceful behavior that they will start gassing and shooting you.
If you don't like Lincoln, try Fleming. "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action." I wonder what Bond would have made of 7000?
I'm no stranger to such action, having participated in a few "active demos" in the past. You don't go along in the expectation of a picnic. Here, according to Wikipedia, is what the Gazains expected
On 30 March 2018, a six-week campaign composed of a series of protests was launched at the Gaza Strip, near the Gaza-Israel border.[7][8] Called by Palestinian organizers the "Great March of Return", the protests demand that Palestinian refugees and their descendants be allowed to return to what is now Israel.[9][10][11] They are also protesting the blockade of the Gaza Strip and the moving of the United States Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.[12] Violence during the protests has resulted in the deadliest days of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict since the 2014 Gaza War.[13][14] Organization of the protests was initiated by independent activists, and has been endorsed and supported by Hamas,[15] as well as other major factions in the Gaza Strip. It was planned to last from 30 March (Land day) to 15 May (Nakba Day). Five tent camps were set up 500 to 700 metres (1,600 to 2,300 ft) from the border and were to remain there throughout the campaign. In the first event on 30 March, thirty thousand Palestinians participated in the protest near the border.[16] Comparatively larger protests have been held on Fridays, 6 April, 13 April, 20 April, 27 April, 4 May, and 11 May—each of which involved at least 10,000 demonstrators—while smaller numbers attend activities during the week.[17][18] Most of the demonstrators at the tent camps hundreds of meters from the border demonstrated peacefully, but groups consisting mainly of young men approached the border, rolled burning tires towards the fence, used burning tires to provide smoke screens, and threw stones and Molotov cocktails at Israeli troops.[19][20][21][22][23] In April, Palestinian protesters began to launch kites bearing incendiary devices over the border fence, causing damage to property on the Israeli side.[24][25] Israeli officials stated that the protests were used by Hamas as cover for launching attacks against Israel.[26]
Just like Glastonbury, eh?
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Post by fascinating on Jun 6, 2018 9:14:00 GMT 1
I hadn't heard that "joke" (and I won't make any joke about Israelis insisting that their capital must be Jerusalem because it was 3 millenia previously) and I will ignore the complete rubbish in the rest of the paragraph. I like the things that Lincoln said, I dislike you misquoting him. Irrelevant. Blimey Alan, that's not fair, instead of the usual silliness, you have actually given some facts! The damage those kites have been causing is basically to fields, burning quite significant areas and fairly serious damage to crops. However, nobody has been harmed, and so I think they do NOT in any way justify the killing of anyone. Compensation for financial loss should be the way to go, and lest that is assumed to be the idea of a pinko-liberal appeaser, it is from the Jewish National Fund, which wants to sue Hamas for $1.4 million worth of damage caused by the kites. www.timesofisrael.com/jnf-threatens-to-sue-hamas-in-international-courts-for-fire-kite-damage/Naturally, the Gaza regime should be allowed to apply for compensation for any Israeli damage to land within Gaza. How much do you think this might be worth? "With regard to demolition of property, since 2005, 305 water wells, 197 chicken farms, 6,377 sheep farms, 996 complete houses, 371 partial houses, three mosques, three schools, and six factories have been destroyed within the “buffer zone”. In addition, a total of 24.4 square kilometres of cultivated land has been leveled in the no-go and high risk zones, all representing civilian and/or cultural properties. Israel refuses to compensate Palestinians for the damages that it caused civilians as a result of its policy of destruction." (2005-2013). www.diakonia.se/en/IHL/where-we-work/Occupied-Palestinian-Territory/Administration-of-Occupation/Gaza-Blockade-Land--Sea/Land-Buffer-Zone/
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Post by alancalverd on Jun 6, 2018 13:04:12 GMT 1
That's what you get for firing rockets at a superior military power. Cologne, Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki....it's all in the history books.
Life is crap, especially if your government is sworn to destroy its neighbour, and he objects.
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Post by fascinating on Jun 7, 2018 7:55:04 GMT 1
I see that you won't answer any of my questions.
It seems to me that the pro-Israeli camp's arguments always come down to what happened in the second world war. That was caused by Japan and Germany invading (taking over with full armies, not only firing rockets) 3 countries each, with the avowed intention of invading more, and carrying out massacres. How many countries have the Gazan's taken over?
It's completely ridiculous to use WW2 as analogous to this situation.
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Post by alancalverd on Jun 8, 2018 10:37:00 GMT 1
I don't quote WW2 as an analogy, though you might care to review "lebensraum" and Sudentenland in the light of current Middle Eastern geopolitics. The point is that whilst the scale may be smaller, the use of random rockets to terrorise a civilian population is not new, and the wise tend to learn the lessons of history. How many countries have the Gazan's taken over? None, yet, despite their government's avowed intention to wipe Israel of the map. Deterrence or active prevention is generally preferred to waiting for the invasion. It is worth noting that Egypt is also unwelcoming to Gazain incursion, and has built a wall and established a 1 km wide exculsion zone along the border. Wikipedia has a credible summary of events along that border, including which makes one wonder whether the Gazains are doing something to seriously annoy their neighbours.
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Post by mrsonde on Jun 8, 2018 19:23:31 GMT 1
Actually I don't know that, my mistake. Fascinating hadn't said anything about the numbers wanting to return to Israel when you posted your figure. So my apologies to fascinating, whose sockpuppet I am not. But the assumption in the news in Nay's link was that protests which resulted in the killing of unarmed civilians by the Israeli forces indicated there was a groundswell of support among Palestinians for the right to return. There is no groundswell, as is clear from every poll taken on the question. On the contrary, there's a growing collapse in such a desire. As for "the killing of unarmed civilians" - no evidence for that at all. Hamas themselves admit that over 90% of them were Hamas fighters. They were shot by highly trained snipers precisely because they were armed. No - read it again, thicko. It's the fact of the matter. Many people don't realise it, and are too disinterested or else too bone-dile lazy to find out for themselves.
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Post by fascinating on Jun 9, 2018 9:56:36 GMT 1
You can't stop yourself from analogising WW2 to the current MIddle East situation can you? Let's review "lebenstraum" - which country in the Middle East is finding living space by building illegal settlements across it's eastern border?
Is there a nation of "Palestine" on the map? No - who do you think could be preventing that?
The current regime in Egypt gets annoyed at any opposition of any kind, hence the massacre of 800 protesters in Cairo 5 years ago (you will no doubt reason that it was all the protesters' fault) and, for example, the sentencing to death of 529 people in one hearing on one day in 2014. The regime violently opposes the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot. But I think that the crucial matter is the $1.3 billion of annual aid that the US provides, which ensures that Egypt plays its part in America's pro-Israel policies.
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Post by fascinating on Jun 9, 2018 10:10:25 GMT 1
2 journalists, a paramedic, and an 8 month baby were killed.
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Post by jean on Jun 9, 2018 10:43:48 GMT 1
...the assumption in the news in Nay's link was that protests which resulted in the killing of unarmed civilians by the Israeli forces indicated there was a groundswell of support among Palestinians for the right to return. There is no groundswell, as is clear from every poll taken on the question. On the contrary, there's a growing collapse in such a desire. No - read it again, thicko. I did read it again. We were talking about the figure of 10% remember, and you said that the figure came from ...the latest poll conducted, that I've read anyway. I would guess the reality is far far higher.
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Post by alancalverd on Jun 11, 2018 6:36:28 GMT 1
Is there a nation of "Palestine" on the map? No - who do you think could be preventing that? Depends whose map you read. Palestine did not exist as a distinct entity before 1917. Successive British governments, having created ruled and defended "Palestine with the official subtitle Eretz Israel" from the 1920s, responded to the Arab Revolt and the Second Unpleasantness in Europe (known to others as WWII, but you don't like me mentioning the War) by deciding to leave and drop the title in favor of the subtitle, in 1948.
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Post by fascinating on Jun 11, 2018 7:29:53 GMT 1
Nor did Israel (for the previous 1800 years). What's your point?
The name in English and Arabic was "Palestine", and that name was printed on passports and coins, but the Hebrew version also included the phrase "Ersatz Israel".
Given these facts, do you believe that the West Bank and Gaza are actually part of Israel?
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Post by Progenitor A on Jun 11, 2018 7:30:29 GMT 1
Palestine did not exist as a distinct entity before 1917. It did. The usual old canard to justify the Zionist annexing Palestine Successive British governments, having created ruled and defended "Palestine with the official subtitle Eretz Israel" from the 1920s, This is the name adopted by the Zionists and is still ye ambition of extree Zionists. It includes all current Jorda, uch of Southern lebanon, all the Sinai ...... responded to the Arab Revolt by deciding to leave and drop the title in favor of the subtitle, in 1948. Juat where did you get this information that Britain officially called Palestine that? As it included Jordan and Egypt, which Britain controlled, Southern Lebanon which the French controlled, it would have been disastrous for them to have called it that
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Post by mrsonde on Jun 11, 2018 13:21:50 GMT 1
2 journalists, a paramedic, and an 8 month baby were killed. You're suggesting they were killed deliberately? By Hamas, perhaps, or by the child's parents - they'd certainly have been prosecuted in this country.
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Post by mrsonde on Jun 11, 2018 13:22:28 GMT 1
There is no groundswell, as is clear from every poll taken on the question. On the contrary, there's a growing collapse in such a desire. No - read it again, thicko. I did read it again. We were talking about the figure of 10% remember, and you said that the figure came from ...the latest poll conducted, that I've read anyway. I would guess the reality is far far higher.
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Post by mrsonde on Jun 11, 2018 13:29:18 GMT 1
Nor did Israel (for the previous 1800 years). What's your point? The point might be that both Palestine and Israel were created together, at the same time, as distinct UN recognised countries. There was no state called "Palestine" before that point, ever. They're administered by the Palestinians, by Israel's voluntary actions.
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