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Post by alancalverd on Sept 2, 2018 17:12:41 GMT 1
It has NEVER happened before What you suggest is absurd Never have a group of a few thousand rioters broken through the fence of a military Mega-power and killed 9 million people! The original Einsatzgruppen were quite small in number, operating just behind the front line advancing into Russia (something of a military megapower) but backed by the policy and resources of a well-organised nation. Great things have small beginnings. The trick, of course, is to stop the bastards before they start, but some correspondents here think otherwise. |
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Post by fascinating on Sept 2, 2018 20:08:39 GMT 1
"Three generations" - Wikipedia tells me that the Hamas charter didn't come out until 1988, so I make that one generation.
It's an extremely weak analogy to liken the conflict to a dispute between 2 neighbours. If I was really in that situation I would be straight to the police. If the police were slow to act I would, given my neighbours are using deadly force, move elsewhere, at least temporarily, until they are dealt with.
So it's a poor analogy - but I'll try to run with it, this time from the other side (I suggest that a rational assessment of the whole situation requires consideration of both sides of the conflict, not just one). My neighbours took over my home and I was taken in by the couple of folks in the next house, for then there weren't that many of us, and in time I gained ownerhip. My neighbours (with the partial aid of another neighbour adjoining) decided to prevent my family going in and out of my property, would cut off electricity and water at will. They made it clear from the start that they could fly military aircraft over my property at will. They pounded the place during a couple of fatal attacks, destroying part of my house, as well as preventing ingress of needed materials to repair. My family, now too large for the property, could not go out to find employment. When they fished in the nearby river, the neighbours started killing them. The neighbour, who keeps guns pointed at my garden, has killed some of my youngsters when they merely walked near the fence, within my own property. Some hotheads in my family have let off some fireworks, but for the past 4 years they have landed harmlessly in the neighbour's patch. The youngsters are getting increasingly angry and desperate. I suppose a "military commander" would at least return fire to anyone firing into my property, with a view to killing them before they kill any more of my family.
Please tell me why.What does that killing achieve?
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Post by fascinating on Sept 2, 2018 20:14:46 GMT 1
I am so glad to hear that some people are now actually discussing the fact that subsidising Palestinian refugees so that they grow from 30,000 in number in 1948 to 5 million today may have been be a tad irrational. Well done Mr Trump for withdrawing some of the funding. Maybe the Arab nations can now be persuaded out of giving subsidy to Palestinian "refugees" to stay in refugee camps and instead to offer citizenship and passports to them? Isn't it also time for Jordan (75% of the land area of post-Ottoman "Mandate Palestine") to regularise the status of the two million West Bank and other Palestinian refugees dwelling in their midst for many decades by giving them Jordanian citizenship and passports? If Jordan won't accept these folk (their kinsmen) as their citizens why the f*** should Israel? There are many alternatives to the 70 year long Palestinian-Israel standoff than that demanded by the likes of fascinating (which always seem to contain the demand for an element of "sacrifice" on the part of the Jews, n'est ce pas?) I don't think the Jews need offer restitution for anything "in settlement" with Palestinians. If ever there were a case for a people to stand firm and intransigent on their nationhood, national interest and security it is this one. Sod the Palestinians. Their misery is self imposed over many generations. Let them "move on" like so many others have before them - including Jews fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition and from Pogroms in Russia. What do you mean by "move on"? What exactly should they do, in your opinion? Suppose Jordan refuses to accept them as citizens, given that it cannot absorb that many, and those refugees are kept in UN-funded camps in the desert. What should they do? What can the Gazans do, if they are still under seige? (Humans Rights Watch regard s Gaza as still under occupation)? Can the Palestinians be allowed to stand on their "nationhood, national interest and security". |
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Post by fascinating on Sept 2, 2018 20:42:19 GMT 1
Evidence that they ASSAULTED the border fence - not just APPROACHED it, which you have not provided.
Note how I refrain from calling you "silly" because you have given an answer to a different question to the one I put. I just pointed out the difference. You should use the same practice of pointing out the facts and not insulting people, if a polite debate is to continue.
Please quote the exact article and phrase. I cannot see it.
If they attack the fence and get through it, Israel is then entitled to use force to stop them, not before.
So if the Gazans surrender their "right to return" they won't be subjected to an armed blockade, with deadly force, anymore?
You THINK it is a fact - but it is not directly relevant to the facts around the Israel-Gaza conflict. I am sorely tempted to make insults that go a great deal further too, but I refrain in the interest of getting clear the views of others in this discussion.
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Post by alancalverd on Sept 2, 2018 23:03:24 GMT 1
Please tell me why.What does that killing achieve? It tends to stop people doing whatever they were doing. So you would be perfectly happy with a two-fence barrier and a free-fire zone between them? Problem then becomes how do you repair the first fence if they have broken through it. Obviously, send military engineers into the free-fire zone. So now you have hand-to-hand fighting and more bloodshed. Since you can't fire into the enemy territory under Fascinating rules, it all has to be done with knives and clubs. If that is your objective, why not say so? Fact is that there is already a 1 km buffer zone. |
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Post by fascinating on Sept 3, 2018 7:47:56 GMT 1
We are talking about unarmed people - why do you want to stop them doing what they are doing?
Israel imposes a buffer zone INSIDE GAZA. Imagine if the Gazans imposed a 1km buffer zone WITHIN Israeli territory, on the ample justification that Israel has guns, planes and tanks pointed at Gaza, and frequently uses them to kill.
A second fence some distance from the Gaza border, within Israeli territory, would be an understandable military solution for Israel, with a policy of using necessary (deadly if really necessary) force to repulse any incursions from Gaza.
But of course some sensible settlement needs to be agreed between the parties and stop the need for all of this killing nonesense.
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Post by marchesarosa on Sept 3, 2018 9:27:57 GMT 1
"Moving on", fascinating, means going to join your relatives in the rest of the world who already had the nous to "move on" at a much earlier stage of the matter. The granting of passports to make this moment possible is necessary but many have already got over that hurdle. And the rest should b enabled to do so by the granting of passports by the Arab brother nations.
Your antisemitism shines through in your utter failure to recognise that "moving on" is the NORMAL RATIONAL behaviour of people who for whatever reason have lost their homeland. As others have already noted you expect a totally unrealistic standard of PC behaviour from Israel compared to what occurs and has repeatedly occurred in history when border changes have been an issue following war.
Get real, you silly-billy and stop this endlessly boring virtue signalling.
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Post by fascinating on Sept 3, 2018 9:39:23 GMT 1
"Moving on", fascinating, means going to join your relatives in the rest of the world who already had the nous to "move on" at a much earlier stage of the matter. The granting of passports to make this moment possible is necessary but many have already got over that hurdle. And the rest should b enabled to do so by the granting of passports by the Arab brother nations. Your antisemitism shines through in your utter failure to recognise that "moving on" is the NORMAL RATIONAL behaviour of people who for whatever reason have lost their homeland. As others have already noted you expect a totally unrealistic standard of PC behaviour from Israel from what occurs and has repeatedly occurred in history when border changes have been an issue following war. Get real, you silly-billy and stop this endlessly boring virtue signalling. No you are wrong, I am not anti-semetic, and nothing I have said here supports that view. On the other hand your own bigotry is very evident with your "sod the Palestinians" who are "squatters" who "breed incontintently". I still don't understand exactly what you mean by "move on". There are Palestinians in the West Bank and in Gaza. Are you saying they should all upsticks and move (presumably to nearby Arab countries)? |
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Post by marchesarosa on Sept 3, 2018 11:04:50 GMT 1
MOVING ON
There are ex-Palestinians all over the world, fascinating, in case you were unaware of this fact. And 100% of all of those currently squatting in camps around Israel will have relatives out there in the wide world who could help them to re-settle outside the Middle East if they wanted to.
All that is necessary is to divert cash from the UNRWA et al subsiding malign, invidious REFUGEEDOM into subsidising the much more rational RESETTLEMENT. Geddit? Change of policy! If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. That means you, fascinating, as well as the Palestinian and Arab Jew haters surrounding Israel. Promote human wellbeing rather than a perverse antisemitic political ideology. You are on the wrong side of history, lady!
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Post by alancalverd on Sept 3, 2018 11:17:32 GMT 1
Much has been mentioned in this thread of the billions of dollars contributed to Israel by Jews living in the USA. These donors are not native Americans, nor even descendants of the first white settlers, but the survivors and descendants of Jews displaced by various unpleasantnesses in Europe over the last 200 years, now working from Manhattan to Hollywood and contributing usefully to society, including (until this week) humanitarian support for Gaza. I don't know of any ghettoes of grumblers sworn to overthrow modern Germany or Russia and generally creating a nuisance on those borders, or even of a great desire among British and American Jews to "return" to where their ancestors were robbed and murdered.
I don't expect you to understand "moving on" any more than the rest of this thread, but it is embodied in the journey from Ravensbruck to Rodeo Drive, not throwing stones at a fence in Gaza.
All the more reason, then, to keep away from the fence. This is not a game.
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Post by fascinating on Sept 3, 2018 12:03:05 GMT 1
MOVING ON There are ex-Palestinians all over the world, fascinating, in case you were unaware of this fact. And 100% of all of those currently squatting in camps around Israel will have relatives out there in the wide world who could help them to re-settle outside the Middle East if they wanted to. All that is necessary is to divert cash from the UNRWA et al subsiding malign, invidious REFUGEEDOM into subsidising the much more rational RESETTLEMENT. Geddit? Change of policy! If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. That means you, fascinating, as well as the Palestinian and Arab Jew haters surrounding Israel. Promote human wellbeing rather than a perverse antisemitic political ideology. You are on the wrong side of history, lady! I am promoting no perverse antisemetic political ideology at all, and I am promoting human wellbeing by trying to find an agreed way to stop a war that has lasted over 50 years with no end in sight. I actually liked the idea you said "A few billion pounds of seed money to encourage remaining individual Palestinian families to move on would help." except I am not quite sure who/what you mean. I asked specifically about the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, but you seem to be referring me to the ones in other parts of the ME and the world. I am asking if you think that the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza should move out. |
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Post by fascinating on Sept 3, 2018 12:06:09 GMT 1
Much has been mentioned in this thread of the billions of dollars contributed to Israel by Jews living in the USA. These donors are not native Americans, nor even descendants of the first white settlers, but the survivors and descendants of Jews displaced by various unpleasantnesses in Europe over the last 200 years, now working from Manhattan to Hollywood and contributing usefully to society, including (until this week) humanitarian support for Gaza. I don't know of any ghettoes of grumblers sworn to overthrow modern Germany or Russia and generally creating a nuisance on those borders, or even of a great desire among British and American Jews to "return" to where their ancestors were robbed and murdered. I don't expect you to understand "moving on" any more than the rest of this thread, but it is embodied in the journey from Ravensbruck to Rodeo Drive, not throwing stones at a fence in Gaza. All the more reason, then, to keep away from the fence. This is not a game. Yes, unarmed people are getting injured and dying by IDF attacks, but you can't give any justification for that. I will ask you, do you think that Palestinians of Gaza and West Bank should all "move on" to other countries? |
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Post by jean on Sept 3, 2018 12:42:40 GMT 1
I think we should probably clarify whether the options we're talking about now are still open, or whether we are really considering what might have been done, wasn't, and now no ionger can be.
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Post by alancalverd on Sept 3, 2018 16:47:36 GMT 1
Yes, unarmed people are getting injured and dying by IDF attacks, but you can't give any justification for that. No need. If you walk onto a railway track or over the edge of a cliff, or pull the pin out of a grenade, you will die and the world will be no worse for the loss of an idiot. If you fly, sail, drive or walk into a marked exclusion zone anywhere else in the world (including most military bases and nuclear plant in the UK) you may be shot without challenge, and the coroner will record "wanker" or whatever the legal equivalent may be. The only difference, as all pseudobleedingheart Jew-haters will not admit, is that this exclusion zone is patrolled by and for the protection of Jews (and the substantial minority of sensible non-Jews who live in Israel). It is of no concern to me what they do, but declaring peace with Israel would seem to be a good starting point for any journey, whether political or geographical. The fact that the Egypt border is just as hard suggests that their present attitude is not welcome in any state with pretensions to civilisation. |
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Post by Progenitor A on Sept 3, 2018 19:25:09 GMT 1
www.facebook.com/JewishVoiceforPeace/videos/295944677856347/Look at this link to see Israeli troops expropriating Palestinian West-Bank property to demolish it making way for an illegal settlement OOps! An anti-semitic link from Israeli Jewish people that empathise with the Palestinians What is the difference in this case between Nazis clearing Jewish property in Poland, and Israeli Zionists clearing Moslem property in the West Bank? You see, saying this, according to the IHRA example of anti-semitism, this is ant-semitic!
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