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Post by jean on Feb 23, 2011 14:21:01 GMT 1
Surprising the board's gay community is so supportive of this culture. ...Put your own grotesque PC mindsets in order... This, from the poster who loftily declared elsewhere only yesterday: posting about climate is infinitely more interesting to me than the attempted point scoring in most of what passes for "Discussion" on this board. and announced that she is free of the 'needling' that other posters resort to. Such self-knowledge, eh?
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Post by marchesarosa on Feb 23, 2011 15:49:05 GMT 1
That was on YOUR board, jean, the one where you pass for moderator and where my Climate Blog and Pippa's music links were all that kept the board alive in the long months of your absence chasing Kassandra et al from pillar to post through cyberspace.
I do not needle. It is not in my nature. I may take a passing swipe at someone else's hypocrisy or intellectual frailty in passing, whilst remaining ON TOPIC, but that's all. I'm not perfect.
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Post by marchesarosa on Feb 23, 2011 15:57:01 GMT 1
Does it have to be spelt out to the towering intellect that is STA?
I said "Surprising the board's gay community is so supportive of this culture" (Islam)
It's not just a religion, it's a mindset.
You are so hideously hidebound with PC and your "Minorities rule, OK" multiculture ideology that you cannot even acknowledge the vile repression of women and gays (plus all ethnic and religious minorities) that Islam and Islamic states represent. These values have been imported into my country and I don't like it. Simple.
I'm glad muslims don't entertain the adoption of white kids. Long may it be so.
When did you last see a gay person hung from a crane in a public place in the West, Speaker, or someone stoned to death, or lashed in public?
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Post by jean on Feb 23, 2011 16:18:04 GMT 1
That was on YOUR board, jean, the one where you pass for moderator... It's not my board, marchesa - just one where I accepted the task of moderator when there was hardly anyone else around. It was offered to you, too, but you refused, as you have every right to do.
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Post by jean on Feb 23, 2011 16:37:49 GMT 1
When did you last see a gay person hung from a crane in a public place in the West, Speaker, or someone stoned to death, or lashed in public? We have recently seen gay people threatened with execution, and murdered, in Uganda. They're Anglicans there, not Muslims.
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Post by marchesarosa on Feb 23, 2011 16:53:39 GMT 1
Is Uganda "the West", now? The wild west, maybe!
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Post by jean on Feb 23, 2011 17:02:59 GMT 1
No, marchesa - but neither is it Muslim.
I thought it was an Islamophobic point you were making.
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Post by jonjel on Feb 23, 2011 17:25:41 GMT 1
And we have seen people killed here as victims of 'queer bashing' and black and white either savagely beaten or worse becasue they have strayed into the wrong area.
And we have seen catholics murder protestants in their thusands, and the other way around in N Ireland.
All that proves is there is intolerance and racism wherever you go, whether that place is Christian Muslim or just about anything else.
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Post by principled on Feb 23, 2011 18:04:55 GMT 1
These foreigners never integrate and the formation of ghettos caused by rapid immigration just makes matters worse. Tomorrow, after a short European flight, I'm going to be driving through such a ghetto...It's called Torrevieja, Spain! Not a Spaniard in sight, and forget some tapas with a small glass of vino, it'll be a pint with egg and chips or nowt! Just glad I won't be stopping there on my short drive south!!! P
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Post by Progenitor A on Feb 23, 2011 19:19:05 GMT 1
And we have seen people killed here as victims of 'queer bashing' and black and white either savagely beaten or worse becasue they have strayed into the wrong area. And we have seen catholics murder protestants in their thusands, and the other way around in N Ireland. All that proves is there is intolerance and racism wherever you go, whether that place is Christian Muslim or just about anything else. Again this is true However there is no avoiding th efact that fundamental Islam is opposed to our liberal freedoms and is prepared to kill and does kill in an attempt to impose its ideology on the Wesr That cannot be said for any other religion currently in the Uk The sad fact is that Islamophobia (fear of Islam) because of the activities of a large minority of Moslems, is a rational postion to hold, and not , as in other 'phobias' indicative of a disturbed, irrational mind (ot alternatively a convenient piece of abuse for the PC to hurl around in order to show how 'holy' they are) MR is quite right - it is absurd for 'gays' to call others Islamophobic, because, if the Islamic culture comes to rule in the UK (not an entirely ridiculous position) then those very gays wil find thmselves beaten and killed and ostracised
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Post by speakertoanimals on Feb 23, 2011 20:25:23 GMT 1
Except you see where we have got to -- a FEW people now get seen as a LARGE minority, and as a jolly good excuse for looking suspiciously at ALL muslims. Which of course will have exactly the effect the SMALL minority want -- convincing oprdinary muslims that we hate and despise them and their religion, that we will allow it no place in OUR country, and they'd better flee or fight.
As Others have correctly pointed out, those that think beating up or killing queers is a good thing will use WHATEVER religion they happen to have as an 'excuse' -- we have the religious right in the US supporting supposed christians urging the murder of gays in Uganda, and we have the taliban using islam as an excuse elsewhere.
Then of course, we have people here in trafalgar square, who don't need any religious excuse, and will just kick a queer in the head because they want to.
We have to be careful to distinguish between what various sects of various religions say, and what cultural values say. Does a person hate gays or women just because they are a muslim, or because they come from a culture where that is the norm? Which do we blame?
And to M -- you must think your culture and way of life is totally FEEBLE, if you can't convince immigrants that it is a better way to live.
Its a tool often used by those who want to keep women (or gays) where they are, to claim that what they are doing is based on their religion -- even when religious leaders of their own faith disagree strongly with that. You blaming it on their religion as well just aids them in this deception.
And stil didn't expain WHY I had to be labelled as 'the gay community', when as far as I can recall, I've said bugger-all about gay rights (pun intended) that was at all contentious..................
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Post by marchesarosa on Feb 23, 2011 21:02:39 GMT 1
I DO think our democratic, liberal western culture IS feeble in the face of Islam, STA I have argued it before. Their culture is immensely more strong than ours.
It would be wrong to assume that democratic values are strong just because they are the best. They are very weak , in fact, and can easily be overturned. We are just very lucky that a concatenation of historical accidents has led to a social structure where all the strong anti-democratic ties of clan, tribe, extended family, religion, ethnicity and now nation have mainly fallen away leaving societies of individuals and not partisan sub-groups.
When these old social fractures reappear, as in the Yugoslav conflicts, the rest of us "individuals" are horrified by them and see them as an aberration. But they are not an aberration at all everywhere in the world except the West and particularly not in Islam where other religious groups and even sub-sects of Islam itself are routinely and legally discriminated against.
The culture and religion of Islam are inextricable. Don't try to defend one while exonerating the other. It's a [snip] religion and an equally [snip] culture.
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Post by louise on Feb 23, 2011 21:40:28 GMT 1
To be honest, I find some of the extremist Christian religions just as scary. Some examples include: - Picketing funerals of American soldiers in the US because they believe that God is punishing Americans for allowing homosexuals to live.
- Enforcing multiple polygamous marriages within small communities such that underage girls are forcibly married off to the 'Church Elders'
- Conducting exorcisms on children who are believed to be witches (that often include very severe beatings)
I think that we all recognise that this is a small, non-typical example of Christianity yet many seem to be unwilling to accept that extreme Islam is as non-typical of main-stream Islam.
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Post by speakertoanimals on Feb 23, 2011 21:58:11 GMT 1
Except it's NOT oine single culture, just as there are many different sects within islam (who hate each other just as much as you seem to fear islam!). And just as we would see equally large gaps between, say, russian orthodox christians, the nut-jobs behind 'godhatesfags', and the sterotypical wishy-washy CofE clergyman (or even bishop), so they see large gaps between diferent islamic sects, and different cultures which happen to both be mainly muslim.
Of course, all you're doing is exactly what they want -- trying to convince people that our problem is not people but muslims -- that we [snip] all muslims, whatever we say in public. Hence the only thing ANY muslim can do in the face of that is support other muslims, and target us because we're not.
A [snip] culture? You take the cultural richness of various countries across the globe which happen to have a majority muslim population, and dismiss them all as [snip]? What a sad outlook you have!
And democracy as feeble -- well, why don't we just give up then, because according to your logic the current protesters could never be winning! What is it they say they want? An end to dictatorship, and more democracy. Perhaps you should go tell those dying for a little more freedom in Tripoli that they might as well not bother, because some other idiot will come and take it away from them..................
Don't we do excatkly the same here? Last time I looked, we still ban catholics from being queen...........................
I'm not defending anything, apart from ordinary, mostly decent people from being lumped together with terrorists just because they happen to follow one particular religion, or from tarring people from various diverse cultures as having [snip]cultures because they happen to all be muslims! Goodness, would be like getting annoyed with quakers because of what the Rev Iain Paisley says, hardly FAIR.
I think that western ideals are feeble as far as you are concerned, because you don't seem to actually SUPPORT them yourself! you don't consider the real differences between people, because after all they are all from a [snip]culture and believe in a [snip] religion. Which of course is EXACTLY what the extremists want others to believe about us -- we're just all christians, who [snip] muslims. Lets keep it nice and simple, us and them, and build the barricades now....................
That's the last thing we are! We always form into groups, just based around other things other than religion. Look at yourself, and your little anti AGW gang, which crosses national boundaries, categorises others as with you or against you -- and is also basically a belief system................................
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Post by marchesarosa on Feb 23, 2011 23:57:30 GMT 1
Louise, it is not "extreme Islam" that is objectionable. It is Islam per se. Islam is an "extremist" religion in comparision with all the other world religions.
There is no Islamic nation which is not in conflict with its non-muslim and ethnic minorities. Islam's borders are bloody. This is not because of a handful of extremists. It is indeed "fundamental".
Where muslims migrate to other cultures they create conflict there, too, because of their xenophobic insularity and self-segregation. They will forever remain an endogamous subgroup. This is not accidental. It is deliberate. Don't kid yourself that they will change.
Read the Qur'an and you will understand why.
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